Ovett vs Coe movie

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.

Excellent synopsis. Exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't put into words as succinctly as yourself. Cheers.

[eldanielfire]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.

So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

Really!? Are you serious? ...

Based on past posts, Rog is a well-known Coe-ophobe (for the record, I agree on a personal level, but the guy was a magnificent athlete and I try to separate the two), so I think you can take his statement about the superiority of Cram's run with a grain of salt. Thanks for lining up the evidence so nicely though.

"Coe-ophobe"? I've never been so bizarrely insulted! Get you isinbaeyeva!

[berkeley]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

Really!? Are you serious? ...

Based on past posts, Rog is a well-known Coe-ophobe (for the record, I agree on a personal level, but the guy was a magnificent athlete and I try to separate the two), so I think you can take his statement about the superiority of Cram's run with a grain of salt. Thanks for lining up the evidence so nicely though.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

Really!? Are you serious?
Neither of Coe's WR runs were WR attempts, and I have that from the horse's mouth. Both are superior performances to anything Cram ran over the distance. 1.5 sec is an eternity at that level.
Coe's Oslo run had Boit in the field. Heard of him? Pretty decent 2 lap runner. If he couldn't stay with Coe after the first lap then that isn't Coe's problem. He put in a 24.8 200m from 400 to 600, more impressive than Cram's 25.0 in a race 1 sec slower.
It is also easier to run fast in a race as long as you have no obstruction. Cram had drafting from 200 to 500m in his Commonwealth win, and someone to aim at in front up to 600m. That is far more beneficial than running totally alone with no drafting for the last 400m. Cram went through 400 in 51.7, Coe was 2 secs faster in 49.7. Completely different ball game.
There is no way Cram could have handled a sub 50 sec first 400, not with a pb of 48.1 in a tt from height of powers in summer 85, and he is on record as stating so.
Cram's run in the Commonwealth was no more impressive than Coe's Stuttgart run, where he ran c 810m (worth more like 1:43.2 on the rails) in worse conditions (heavy rain) after a heat and semi the 2 days before. Cram had 3 days rest between the semi and final.
Coe's last 200m in Stuttgart was 24.8, running at least 2.5m wide. That's equivalent to a 24.5 on the rails as per Cram had in Edinburgh.
The field in the Commonwealth final was far weaker. Elliott had only just broken 1:45 (1:44.8), a week or so before, the first time he had done so since 1983, some 3 years prior.
McKean had a pb of 1:46.05 going into 1986, and his 1:44.87 run in Edinburgh was a pb. He had always stated that the Europeans were his target for reaching a peak, and a look at the splits in both races confirm this. His last 200m in Edinburgh was 26.1, whereas in Stuttgart it was a whole second faster, 25.1. And his finishing time in the Euros was a new pb, 1:44.61.
Cram had stated his intent from early in 86 that he would reach a peak for the Commonwealths, and 'hold it' to the Europeans. His only rivals were a 1:44.8 Elliott and an up and coming McKean who had not yet broken 1:45.
Cram's run was magnificent, but it was certainly made to look the more so by the way the race played out (even splits, lots of drafting, only c2.5m extra run on 3rd bend), the lack of real rivals and the fact that it was more of a 1 off circuit race than a proper Championship series with 3 or 4 races in 3 or 4 days, when they were run significantly below 1:50.

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit.

Seriously? Far and away better than 1:41.73 :?: :shock:

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

[Powell]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit.

Seriously? Far and away better than 1:41.73 :?: :shock:

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.

It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.

The Commonwealth 800 for Cram was run exactly as he liked to run them; even splits, someone in front up to 600m giving him drafting and all out for the last 200m.
His splits were 51.7/51.5. (25.2, 26.5, 26.4, 25.0).
His 400 pb was only 48.1 from 85, so he wouldn't have flourished off a 50 sec first lap. 51.0 was probably perfect, as he was able to maintain that speed longer than most.

The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.
He has admitted that he was "all out" over the last 200m. He said at the time that he could hear the crowd going wild with 150m to go, and believed at the time that this was because McKean must be closing on him, so he went as hard as he could.
For someone with limited 23/48 speed, he wasn't going to run much faster than he did in Zurich 85.

I think this post is rather unfair. The opposition wasn't weak - McKean and Elliott were both world ranked 800 runners. The splits were fairly even (in fact a negative split) but that is a rarity in what was a very fast championship race - indeed about the sort of time Rudisha ran to win in 09, off a faster first lap. And if he was all out over the last 200, is it any wonder when he completed that last sector in 25 flat? That's a sprint finish by any standards!

I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit. He ran 1:43 in a Championship (not in a paced circuit race) and looked unbeatable on the day. Only Rudisha in 12 has impressed me more, although I think Cruz in 84 was on a similar level.

[no one]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

one of my favorite Oly 800m was in '88 - pretty good race all around. Coe gets second. And Kiprotich comes from behind to win. Oh wait, Shorter and friend, Charlie Jones, get it wrong and it is Paul Ereng. And Ereng did come from farrrr back. "We have blown this call" "Oh my gosh". I talked to Ereng about this @ NCAA Regional XC champs and he just laughed. He also laughed about me giving his #1 guy (who had been sick for 2 weeks with strep - ouch) tips on the steeplechase. Both were preceded with me not knowing who either one of em were. ... Kiprotich ... Rotich ... get em all mixed up ... Open mouth

ps - bugged by the Jo - a - keem Cruz. thats not the pronunciation is it?

[rsb2]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Cram was very impressive indeed in Edinburgh/'86. In the 800, he pulled away from McKean, Elliott and the rest as if they were standing still. As stated, the conditions were not "horrible" for the 800 m. final. There was a breeze on the backstretch, but nothing like the headwind in the 1500 m. a few days later. Having said that, he certainly looked invincible on the day, and it seemed that he was capable of running much faster if necessary.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.

It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.

The Commonwealth 800 for Cram was run exactly as he liked to run them; even splits, someone in front up to 600m giving him drafting and all out for the last 200m.
His splits were 51.7/51.5. (25.2, 26.5, 26.4, 25.0).
His 400 pb was only 48.1 from 85, so he wouldn't have flourished off a 50 sec first lap. 51.0 was probably perfect, as he was able to maintain that speed longer than most.

The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.
He has admitted that he was "all out" over the last 200m. He said at the time that he could hear the crowd going wild with 150m to go, and believed at the time that this was because McKean must be closing on him, so he went as hard as he could.
For someone with limited 23/48 speed, he wasn't going to run much faster than he did in Zurich 85.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I've talked to Ovett twice. Well, the first time wasn't much of a talk. He showed up at the '79 NCAA in Champaign (courtesy Nike, probably) and a mutual friend in England had said I should tell him hi. I introduced myself and said that so-and-so said I should say hi, and he in so many words told me to piss off.

But then we then ended up at the same dinner table at a World Cup function in Madrid in '01 and I've rarely enjoyed anybody's company so much. Much laughing and joking and telling of tales out of class.

I figured all those years in Oz had worked wonders in the geniality department.

I wonder if you were as charming in person then as you are now on-line. :lol:

Time in Oz had nothing to do with it. He had an intense dislike of most journo's but club athletes and fans all spoke highly of him.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

The reason why the recent BBC documentary about Moscow appears to praise Coe more than Ovett, is because Ovett steadfastly refuses to help, advise or answer any questions about the event.

And this goes way back. The only significant figure missing from the great 1994 "Bannister dinner" in London was Ovett. I admire him tremendously, but honestly don't understand this "screw you" attitude toward the larger sport.

I think you misinterpret his reluctance to dwell on the past for a 'screw you' attitude to the sport. He clearly still loves the sport but doesn't indulge in nostalgia.

His ex-wife tells a great story about his daughter coming home from school in 2000, aged around 6, all excited because they'd been studying the Olympics and she'd learned that a man with the same name as Daddy had been Olympic champion. I know through a mutual acquaintance that he had no memorabilia form his career in his house except for a packet of photos mark Shearman gave him.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I don't see Cram ever possessing enough 400 speed to concern the likes of Cruz, Coe, Kipketer and Rudisha at their best. He's said himself that he was at his absolute limit in Zurich 85 (1:42.88)

Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.

What is this obsession with class! What actually represented a 'working' or 'middle' class life/background?
/quote]

Eldanielfire said Coe was working class and since that was factually incorrect the pedant in me decided to contradict him. I have no obsession with class. "What represented 'working' or 'middle' class" is actually not some kind of mystery as you seem to suggest but something clearly defined by hard-working Sociologists in many learned papers over the years. Regrettably, I had to read some of them and therefore am qualified to confirm that Coe was middle class. There were many reasons why I loved Ovett and did not particularly like Coe. Class was not one of them.