Ovett vs Coe movie

[jmd]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I don't think the men middle distances in Moscou 1980 were weak events.

They were tactical races and when it comes to Olympics, tactical
is as interesting than performance, for my humble mind.
Remember Snell, Wottle or Keino, Vasala and Walker, for exemple.

Yes, Coe might have run better on 800, yes Ovett too, might have finished closer
on 1500, but as they were, these two races were exciting !
And the "drama" or the "thrill", related by medias, about those talented runners
gave a lot of interest to our sport, not a bad thing, isn' it ?

I remember that I, for anything on this world, should not have missed the TV retransmissions of the events and leaving my office five minutes before the 800, I must have run almost
as fast as Seb and Steve, this day, to come home !
I've said "almost" !

So, I think I'll go and see this film next year, though I prefer to look at races,
even on youtube, than to mellow romances...
Just wait and see !

[JumboElliott]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

They were weak events because the 1500 didn't have Walker, Scott, or Wessinghage and the 800 didn't have Paige or Robinson. That's five medal contenders, including a defending Olympic champion who didn't get a chance to compete.

[jmd]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Of course you're right, JumboElliott : the 800 and the 1500
would have been even more exciting, with all the talented athletes you quote !

But we don't have to forget that in 79 and 80, Coe and Ovett won the majority of the races
they competed in, against Walker, Scott, Wessinhage, Bayi, etc...

[G.Ahearn]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

From a puriist/artistic standpoint, (versus making $$) Daniel Radcliffle is a poor choice to play Coe. Doesn't look like him--in face and body. Doesn't look like a runner. A better choice would be some relatively unknown British/Irish actor who actually looks like he could be a world class runner. A great example: Ben Cross and Ian Charleson in Chariots of Fire. Or Michael Crawford in The Games, or Billy Crudup in Without Limits. I suspect DR was selected because he is a "name."

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

jnd wrote: -

But we don't have to forget that in 79 and 80, Coe and Ovett won the majority of the races
they competed in, against Walker, Scott, Wessinhage, Bayi, etc...

It wasn't just the majority of races. Neither Walker, nor Scott, nor Wessinghage, nor Bayi beat either Coe or Ovett at any time between 1978 and 1983, despite facing them many times.

In any case, Bayi chose to run the 3000SC and I believe I read somewhere that Wessinghage intended running the 5000 in Moscow, for obvious reasons. Looking at the finishing stats of the 1500 in Moscow, I don't believe any of those named above would have been good enough for a medal; Straub obviously run a cut above anything else he ever did, yes, but I think we can safely say that the GDR state had some say in that.

The 800m might have been different. I think if Paige had been in the race, Coe may have worried more about him and not been so "mesmerised" by Ovett's presence, and run a completely different race. I don't think Robinson would have been an issue, he never came remotely close to beating Coe, although he narrowly beat Ovett on the circuit in 79.
And of course, if different athletes were in the final the race may have played out differently! But that can be said of any race, regardless of boycott.

[Jack Lovelock]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Whilst Don Paige was a fast finisher, I don't think that Coe would have been that worried about him. In "Running Free", Coe only identifies James Maina of Kenya as a potential threat in the Olympic 800:

"In the 800 metres, I don't think there is really a serious challenge. No one. James Maina of Kenya might be a medallist if the Kenyans go. He is 1.5 seconds slower on paper, which might not be much physically but , at that sort of pace, it's considerable psychologically."

Paige was over 2 seconds slower than Coe at the time and his defeats of both Ovett and Coe in seperate races over 800m came in one offs, not a championship series. These are chalk and cheese. Paige never really showed that kind of major championship temperament that Ovett and Coe (eventually at 800!) showed again and again. Maina had won the 79 World Cup 800 and was potentially a more credible threat at the time. Equally, the way the race was run, it's certainly possible that Paige might have nicked a medal but with different opponents would have come different tactics. I just wish that Coe had developed the tactic that he had perfected by 1981 of sitting at the front, coasting along not allowing anyone to pass until the detonation of his finishing kick in the home straight. Had he run like that in Moscow, he would have won by some distance. His Europa Cup exploits in 81 (both semi and final) as well as his World Cup 800 win in 81 are textbook examples of tactical championship 800m running, as exemplary in their way of how to WIN as Ovett's 77 World Cup 1500 victory.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yes Jack, I agree with pretty much everything you've said, although Coe's words about the 800 were probably written before the 80 season got going. No doubt Paige would have been picked up on the radar by Peter Coe.
Also I'm pretty sure Paige never beat Ovett. He ran him close (0.12) in a 1000m in 83. It was Robinson I think who beat Ovett in a less important circuit race in 79.

But you're absolutely right about what would have happened had Coe used the same tactics as he did in 81. He used this tactic to good effect too in 82, until he got beaten in the European final when ill. He seemed to stop using it thereafter, which was a shame, as I feel he would have been pretty much unbeatable employing this tactic when in top form. In both LA and Stuttgart he ran so wide and therefore extra distance, in order to stay out of trouble, so giving his opponents an advantage.

[JumboElliott]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Paige ran better in championships than he did in one-off races. In 1979, he won the NCAA 1500m championship in 3:39, then won the 800m 28 minutes later in 1:46. He was in better shape in 1980, when he ran the world leading 800 time at the Olympic trials, a championship race.

[no one]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

not that it wasn't ... regardless, but adding Paige to the mix (1980) would have made for a very intriguing race.

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yes Jack, I agree with pretty much everything you've said, although Coe's words about the 800 were probably written before the 80 season got going. No doubt Paige would have been picked up on the radar by Peter Coe.
Also I'm pretty sure Paige never beat Ovett. He ran him close (0.12) in a 1000m in 83. It was Robinson I think who beat Ovett in a less important circuit race in 79.

But you're absolutely right about what would have happened had Coe used the same tactics as he did in 81. He used this tactic to good effect too in 82, until he got beaten in the European final when ill. He seemed to stop using it thereafter, which was a shame, as I feel he would have been pretty much unbeatable employing this tactic when in top form. In both LA and Stuttgart he ran so wide and therefore extra distance, in order to stay out of trouble, so giving his opponents an advantage.

I don't think Coe, even in his prime, could have beaten Cruz in the 84 OG. Coe's best two runs were solo world record attempts - Cruz ran his best time, only 4/100ths of a second slower than Coe's, in an actual race, in one of a series of very fast 800 races, that at the time they were run (84) represented the summit of sustained achievement over 800m. Apart from Steve Cram's 800 win in the 86 Commonwealth Games I don't think there's been an 800 runner to equal (or surpass) the 84 model Cruz other than Rudisha.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

[quote]I don't think Coe, even in his prime, could have beaten Cruz in the 84 OG. Coe's best two runs were solo world record attempts - Cruz ran his best time, only 4/100ths of a second slower than Coe's, in an actual race, in one of a series of very fast 800 races, that at the time they were run (84) represented the summit of sustained achievement over 800m. Apart from Steve Cram's 800 win in the 86 Commonwealth Games I don't think there's been an 800 runner to equal (or surpass) the 84 model Cruz other than Rudisha.[quote)


I agree that the series Cruz put together at the Olympics in 84 was the most impressive I've seen in a Championship, especially as there were 4 rounds rather than the normal 3.

If you read his various biographies, then you'll see that he stated neither of his world record runs at 800m were planned record attempts. The Oslo race was the first after his finals and he was just hoping for a fast time. It was a 'race' also, with Boit in the field, and just because he won by the proverbial mile does not detract that this was a big meet and first and foremost a race.

His Florence run was also not a record attempt. It was early June and he's always planned to have a go at the WR in Oslo in July. Again, an unexpected time and result. I have spoken to Coe about this race and he stated catergorically that Konchellah had not been asked to go out so fast. He was in fact a 400 guy at the time, and obviously got carried away on the first lap. Note he also finished the race, not dropping out as allocated rabbits usually do at the bell and even forcing Coe to run wide on the bend, costing him a couple of tenths.
I have no doubt that Coe would have been in better form a month or so later. No one as meticulously planned as the Coes were are going to want to reach a peak in early June, especially with a planned race with Ovett over a Mile in Brussels in lat August and the World Cup in September.
I asked him in person last year what he thought he could have run in 81 had he chased the record later in the season and he said 1:41.2.

The series Cruz put together post LA in 84 was also phenomenal, and of course they were high class fields, but make no mistake, each was a carefully orchestrated record attempt. He had made it known he was after Coe's record, and despite 3 valient efforts with rabbits and people like Koskei and Gray pushing him relatively close, he didn't quite break Coe's time, which was more of a solo effort. In his 1:41.77 run in Cologne, Cruz had a rabbit infront of him until almost 600m (about 550m) with Koskei only a few strides down. That is far more of an incentive to maintain pace and get the best out of yourself than being 40m + in front of the rest of the field.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Championship running is quite different from a one off run, I grant you, but it is a fact that Coe had not had the greatest of build ups to LA, and was not quite at his career best of 81, as training times implicated. All things considered, he did pretty well to hold Cruz to 4m, especially as he had run wider than Cruz throughout the race.

I respect your opinion but disagree. In a 1 off race between Coe in 81 and Cruz in 84, I think Coe would win. In a championship scenario I'm not as certain.

Cram's 86 run, as majestic as it was, was more of a 1 off circuit race than a championship series, considering the heat was in about 1:51 and there was 3 days between semi and final. It's almost impossible to compare this with Cruz's efforts in LA, which was much more intense.

Cruz certainly wasn't in his 84 form when he faced Cram in Zurich 85, and Cram was in the best form of his life. Yet Cruz ran him close. I don't see Cram ever possessing enough 400 speed to concern the likes of Cruz, Coe, Kipketer and Rudisha at their best. He's said himself that he was at his absolute limit in Zurich 85 (1:42.88), where not only did he run pretty even splits (51.0, 51.8), which he always advocated as the best way of running 800m, but also got almost 700m of drafting from Cruz in front of him.

Cram had a lifetime pb of 48.1 for 400 in a tt in the summer of 85, which is why he never ran faster than 51 flat on the first lap. Any faster and the wheels would have fallen off in the home straight. Coe, Cruz, Kipketer and Rudisha were all 45/46 second men.
And of course Coe beat Cram a month later in Stuttgart, when Cram was supposedly in the form of his life.

[jmd]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Very nice and interesting post !
Thank you Deanouk and all the posters.

I also think that a more healthy, confident and... lucky Coe
would have won in 78, 80, 82 and surely in 84 !

I just have looked at the Stuttgart video of 1986, what a marvelous race !

[eldanielfire]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

my dad days that ovett was more of a working class hero, while coe was more to middle class taste!

makes sense considering seb went onto become a Tory MP, not his best feature I have to say!

Coe was as working class than Ovett. Grew up in Sheffield, son of a factory worker in Sheffield steel. Grew up helping his dad out in the factory.

[gh]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Coe's father may have been employed by a factory, but as an engineer, I think "factory worker" probably a bit of a stretch as it relates to the working class.