Ovett vs Coe movie

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.

What is this obsession with class! What actually represented a 'working' or 'middle' class life/background?
Coe's dad was born and raised in Fulham in a 2 up 2 down terraced house. He was clever, and qualified as an engineer. He 'worked' hard to get to that position. His background was hardly privileged.
Coe junior would have had a comfortable childhood, but it was not privileged. He failed his 11 plus exams and went to a secondary modern comprehensive, not the sort of education one would expect for the middle classes. His parents did not send him to private school. Many uninformed people believe he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, was privately educated and everything was given to him on a plate! This is what many associate with "middle class". Coe had none of these. He got to University and made himself a great runner through hard work. Apart from the year leading up to the 80 Olympics, he was also never a full time athlete; working or studying throughout his career.
In contrast Ovett was educated at a Grammar school, was an art student and then a full time athlete (with no job) from early on in his career.
There is no doubt that Ovett came from a more traditionally perceived "working class" back-ground, but he hardly had to struggle growing up and reaching the top. If anything it sounded easier than Coe's.

Both had pretty ordinary upbringings as they would have been seen at the time. Both were clearly very talented and both would have had to work hard to get to the levels they reached.
There are far more similarities in their lives than differences, yet most want to dwell on the latter.
The idea that Coe (who has become a Lord through bloody hard work, not family background) was a privately educated toff and Ovett an ordinary working class lad made good is a myth and far removed from reality. If the film goes down this line, as so many seem to want, then it will be an utter failure.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

phew! glad to hear they didn't make a Lord out of some guttersnipe!

Ever heard of Lord sugar. :lol:

[user4]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

The thought of a 3 hour big screen epic saga on the colossal eternal story of two self absorbed athletes with pampered hypersized egos and all the attendant media drama of teen idols has us itching with anticipation ! Let the 20million dollar fight for the movie rights begin in hollywood !

[gh]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

….His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.

This is a wondrous coincidence. Being an ignorant colonial I had to google RADA (to discover, I assume Royal Academy of Dramatic Art). But the first thing that comes up on the search page is Rada Cutlery!

[gh]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

phew! glad to hear they didn't make a Lord out of some guttersnipe!

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Page 23 of his autobiography includes the info that when they moved to Sheffield his dad was 'running a cutlery factory' and they owned a detached three storey house in 'a well heeled area'.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.

[eldanielfire]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Coe's father may have been employed by a factory, but as an engineer, I think "factory worker" probably a bit of a stretch as it relates to the working class.

Back then it was still very much working class. He was still making steel and the family didn't have money to their name.

[gh]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Coe's father may have been employed by a factory, but as an engineer, I think "factory worker" probably a bit of a stretch as it relates to the working class.

[eldanielfire]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

my dad days that ovett was more of a working class hero, while coe was more to middle class taste!

makes sense considering seb went onto become a Tory MP, not his best feature I have to say!

Coe was as working class than Ovett. Grew up in Sheffield, son of a factory worker in Sheffield steel. Grew up helping his dad out in the factory.

[jmd]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Very nice and interesting post !
Thank you Deanouk and all the posters.

I also think that a more healthy, confident and... lucky Coe
would have won in 78, 80, 82 and surely in 84 !

I just have looked at the Stuttgart video of 1986, what a marvelous race !

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Championship running is quite different from a one off run, I grant you, but it is a fact that Coe had not had the greatest of build ups to LA, and was not quite at his career best of 81, as training times implicated. All things considered, he did pretty well to hold Cruz to 4m, especially as he had run wider than Cruz throughout the race.

I respect your opinion but disagree. In a 1 off race between Coe in 81 and Cruz in 84, I think Coe would win. In a championship scenario I'm not as certain.

Cram's 86 run, as majestic as it was, was more of a 1 off circuit race than a championship series, considering the heat was in about 1:51 and there was 3 days between semi and final. It's almost impossible to compare this with Cruz's efforts in LA, which was much more intense.

Cruz certainly wasn't in his 84 form when he faced Cram in Zurich 85, and Cram was in the best form of his life. Yet Cruz ran him close. I don't see Cram ever possessing enough 400 speed to concern the likes of Cruz, Coe, Kipketer and Rudisha at their best. He's said himself that he was at his absolute limit in Zurich 85 (1:42.88), where not only did he run pretty even splits (51.0, 51.8), which he always advocated as the best way of running 800m, but also got almost 700m of drafting from Cruz in front of him.

Cram had a lifetime pb of 48.1 for 400 in a tt in the summer of 85, which is why he never ran faster than 51 flat on the first lap. Any faster and the wheels would have fallen off in the home straight. Coe, Cruz, Kipketer and Rudisha were all 45/46 second men.
And of course Coe beat Cram a month later in Stuttgart, when Cram was supposedly in the form of his life.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

[quote]I don't think Coe, even in his prime, could have beaten Cruz in the 84 OG. Coe's best two runs were solo world record attempts - Cruz ran his best time, only 4/100ths of a second slower than Coe's, in an actual race, in one of a series of very fast 800 races, that at the time they were run (84) represented the summit of sustained achievement over 800m. Apart from Steve Cram's 800 win in the 86 Commonwealth Games I don't think there's been an 800 runner to equal (or surpass) the 84 model Cruz other than Rudisha.[quote)


I agree that the series Cruz put together at the Olympics in 84 was the most impressive I've seen in a Championship, especially as there were 4 rounds rather than the normal 3.

If you read his various biographies, then you'll see that he stated neither of his world record runs at 800m were planned record attempts. The Oslo race was the first after his finals and he was just hoping for a fast time. It was a 'race' also, with Boit in the field, and just because he won by the proverbial mile does not detract that this was a big meet and first and foremost a race.

His Florence run was also not a record attempt. It was early June and he's always planned to have a go at the WR in Oslo in July. Again, an unexpected time and result. I have spoken to Coe about this race and he stated catergorically that Konchellah had not been asked to go out so fast. He was in fact a 400 guy at the time, and obviously got carried away on the first lap. Note he also finished the race, not dropping out as allocated rabbits usually do at the bell and even forcing Coe to run wide on the bend, costing him a couple of tenths.
I have no doubt that Coe would have been in better form a month or so later. No one as meticulously planned as the Coes were are going to want to reach a peak in early June, especially with a planned race with Ovett over a Mile in Brussels in lat August and the World Cup in September.
I asked him in person last year what he thought he could have run in 81 had he chased the record later in the season and he said 1:41.2.

The series Cruz put together post LA in 84 was also phenomenal, and of course they were high class fields, but make no mistake, each was a carefully orchestrated record attempt. He had made it known he was after Coe's record, and despite 3 valient efforts with rabbits and people like Koskei and Gray pushing him relatively close, he didn't quite break Coe's time, which was more of a solo effort. In his 1:41.77 run in Cologne, Cruz had a rabbit infront of him until almost 600m (about 550m) with Koskei only a few strides down. That is far more of an incentive to maintain pace and get the best out of yourself than being 40m + in front of the rest of the field.

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yes Jack, I agree with pretty much everything you've said, although Coe's words about the 800 were probably written before the 80 season got going. No doubt Paige would have been picked up on the radar by Peter Coe.
Also I'm pretty sure Paige never beat Ovett. He ran him close (0.12) in a 1000m in 83. It was Robinson I think who beat Ovett in a less important circuit race in 79.

But you're absolutely right about what would have happened had Coe used the same tactics as he did in 81. He used this tactic to good effect too in 82, until he got beaten in the European final when ill. He seemed to stop using it thereafter, which was a shame, as I feel he would have been pretty much unbeatable employing this tactic when in top form. In both LA and Stuttgart he ran so wide and therefore extra distance, in order to stay out of trouble, so giving his opponents an advantage.

I don't think Coe, even in his prime, could have beaten Cruz in the 84 OG. Coe's best two runs were solo world record attempts - Cruz ran his best time, only 4/100ths of a second slower than Coe's, in an actual race, in one of a series of very fast 800 races, that at the time they were run (84) represented the summit of sustained achievement over 800m. Apart from Steve Cram's 800 win in the 86 Commonwealth Games I don't think there's been an 800 runner to equal (or surpass) the 84 model Cruz other than Rudisha.

[no one]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

not that it wasn't ... regardless, but adding Paige to the mix (1980) would have made for a very intriguing race.