Ovett vs Coe movie

[JumboElliott]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Paige ran better in championships than he did in one-off races. In 1979, he won the NCAA 1500m championship in 3:39, then won the 800m 28 minutes later in 1:46. He was in better shape in 1980, when he ran the world leading 800 time at the Olympic trials, a championship race.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yes Jack, I agree with pretty much everything you've said, although Coe's words about the 800 were probably written before the 80 season got going. No doubt Paige would have been picked up on the radar by Peter Coe.
Also I'm pretty sure Paige never beat Ovett. He ran him close (0.12) in a 1000m in 83. It was Robinson I think who beat Ovett in a less important circuit race in 79.

But you're absolutely right about what would have happened had Coe used the same tactics as he did in 81. He used this tactic to good effect too in 82, until he got beaten in the European final when ill. He seemed to stop using it thereafter, which was a shame, as I feel he would have been pretty much unbeatable employing this tactic when in top form. In both LA and Stuttgart he ran so wide and therefore extra distance, in order to stay out of trouble, so giving his opponents an advantage.

[Jack Lovelock]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Whilst Don Paige was a fast finisher, I don't think that Coe would have been that worried about him. In "Running Free", Coe only identifies James Maina of Kenya as a potential threat in the Olympic 800:

"In the 800 metres, I don't think there is really a serious challenge. No one. James Maina of Kenya might be a medallist if the Kenyans go. He is 1.5 seconds slower on paper, which might not be much physically but , at that sort of pace, it's considerable psychologically."

Paige was over 2 seconds slower than Coe at the time and his defeats of both Ovett and Coe in seperate races over 800m came in one offs, not a championship series. These are chalk and cheese. Paige never really showed that kind of major championship temperament that Ovett and Coe (eventually at 800!) showed again and again. Maina had won the 79 World Cup 800 and was potentially a more credible threat at the time. Equally, the way the race was run, it's certainly possible that Paige might have nicked a medal but with different opponents would have come different tactics. I just wish that Coe had developed the tactic that he had perfected by 1981 of sitting at the front, coasting along not allowing anyone to pass until the detonation of his finishing kick in the home straight. Had he run like that in Moscow, he would have won by some distance. His Europa Cup exploits in 81 (both semi and final) as well as his World Cup 800 win in 81 are textbook examples of tactical championship 800m running, as exemplary in their way of how to WIN as Ovett's 77 World Cup 1500 victory.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

jnd wrote: -

But we don't have to forget that in 79 and 80, Coe and Ovett won the majority of the races
they competed in, against Walker, Scott, Wessinhage, Bayi, etc...

It wasn't just the majority of races. Neither Walker, nor Scott, nor Wessinghage, nor Bayi beat either Coe or Ovett at any time between 1978 and 1983, despite facing them many times.

In any case, Bayi chose to run the 3000SC and I believe I read somewhere that Wessinghage intended running the 5000 in Moscow, for obvious reasons. Looking at the finishing stats of the 1500 in Moscow, I don't believe any of those named above would have been good enough for a medal; Straub obviously run a cut above anything else he ever did, yes, but I think we can safely say that the GDR state had some say in that.

The 800m might have been different. I think if Paige had been in the race, Coe may have worried more about him and not been so "mesmerised" by Ovett's presence, and run a completely different race. I don't think Robinson would have been an issue, he never came remotely close to beating Coe, although he narrowly beat Ovett on the circuit in 79.
And of course, if different athletes were in the final the race may have played out differently! But that can be said of any race, regardless of boycott.

[G.Ahearn]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

From a puriist/artistic standpoint, (versus making $$) Daniel Radcliffle is a poor choice to play Coe. Doesn't look like him--in face and body. Doesn't look like a runner. A better choice would be some relatively unknown British/Irish actor who actually looks like he could be a world class runner. A great example: Ben Cross and Ian Charleson in Chariots of Fire. Or Michael Crawford in The Games, or Billy Crudup in Without Limits. I suspect DR was selected because he is a "name."

[jmd]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Of course you're right, JumboElliott : the 800 and the 1500
would have been even more exciting, with all the talented athletes you quote !

But we don't have to forget that in 79 and 80, Coe and Ovett won the majority of the races
they competed in, against Walker, Scott, Wessinhage, Bayi, etc...

[JumboElliott]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

They were weak events because the 1500 didn't have Walker, Scott, or Wessinghage and the 800 didn't have Paige or Robinson. That's five medal contenders, including a defending Olympic champion who didn't get a chance to compete.

[jmd]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I don't think the men middle distances in Moscou 1980 were weak events.

They were tactical races and when it comes to Olympics, tactical
is as interesting than performance, for my humble mind.
Remember Snell, Wottle or Keino, Vasala and Walker, for exemple.

Yes, Coe might have run better on 800, yes Ovett too, might have finished closer
on 1500, but as they were, these two races were exciting !
And the "drama" or the "thrill", related by medias, about those talented runners
gave a lot of interest to our sport, not a bad thing, isn' it ?

I remember that I, for anything on this world, should not have missed the TV retransmissions of the events and leaving my office five minutes before the 800, I must have run almost
as fast as Seb and Steve, this day, to come home !
I've said "almost" !

So, I think I'll go and see this film next year, though I prefer to look at races,
even on youtube, than to mellow romances...
Just wait and see !

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Strange then that Coe appeared on the front of the following month's "Sports Illustrated" magazine, which I believe is an American publication and has nothing to do with insulated chauvinistic Brits!

Ovett's penultimate 100 in Dusseldorf was 12.0 (although his coach, Harry Wilson said he hand timed it at 11.9); and came off a previous 200m of only 29.2, and a last 800m in a pedestrian 1:54.3, so it's hardly surprising. In Moscow the last 800 was 1:48.5, some 6 secs faster, and the penultimate 200 was 2 secs faster than Dusseldorf at 27.2. Completely different races. He was unable to put in a 12.0 penultimate 100 round the bend because he had his kick run out of him.

Ovett's penultimate 100 in Prague was 12.2, not sub 12, and the 200 stretch before that was 27.6, again slower than the corresponding stretch in Moscow. His last 700m was 1:37.5, compared to 1:33.2 in Moscow.

Ovett was great when no one stretched the field and went for home more than 400 out, as he was able to kick at 200m off a reasonable pace and pull away from the rest of the field. Up to Moscow the opposition always played into his hands. And Cram showed again that you could run the sting out of his legs by going from the bell in 83, thus neutralising his acceleration with 200 to go.

And if the pace hadn't picked up 700 out in Moscow there is little evidence to show Ovett would have pulled away from Coe with 200 to go, unless Coe was boxed in or ran a tactically disatrous race again, and it was clear from the opening 100 of the 1500 that Coe wasn't going to do that; always staying on the leader's shoulder. Coe's acceleration with 200 to go was (at least) just as good as Ovett's; his penultimate 100 in the 800m final there was 12.3, and that was running in lane 2. That IS worth sub 12 with a clear run in lane 1.

As for Olizarenko and Kazankina, of course their overall times were vastly superior to what the men produced; indeed they were vastly superior to practically any women's middle distance race at any chamionship since; and we all know why that was! But that doesn't necessarily constitute making one the "star" of a Games. Both Farah's times in this year's Worlds were hardly earth shattering, and he employed the same (some would say boring or predictable) "sit and kick" tactics of Coe & Ovett. Yet he was certainly one of the stars of the Championship, as his short-listing for AOY highlights. Unless of course the panel that sit on that one are comprised mainly of insulated, chauvinistic Brits?

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Deano, I can see you're a huge Coe fan, and no-one is going to persuade you differently regarding anything to do with him, so if you don't agree with the following, just ignore it.

In the case of Moscow 80, there was a huge amount of hype about the clash between Coe and Ovett both beforehand, and after, but this was mainly from the British press about two British athletes. When Ovett won the 800 in 1:45 I don't think it compared too favourably against Oliszaryenko's bold front running to win the women's race in 1:53. Similarly, Coe won the 1500 with a fast last 700, but that was because he just stuck to Straub and kicked past in the home straight. In the women's equivalent, Kazankina ran a fast last 700 too (comparatively faster, at that - I think she ran 1:59 for her last 800) but in her case it was because she went to the front 600 out and made a bold move herself. Despite a slow first half, she finished in a time that was at that point the third fastest time ever.

My point is that unless one is an insulated, chauvinistic Brit, one has to conclude that the men's middle distance events in Moscow 80 were overshadowed by the women's. Then, when you consider the great performances in other events by the likes of Kozakiewicz, Wessig and Sedykh, and Yifter's double, not to mention the many great performances in the women's events, then it's hard to see how one can draw the conclusion that Coe and Ovett were stars of the games - unless one is an insular, chauvinistic Brit.

I still stick to my point about Coe and Ovett running badly in their main events. Coe's 800 tactics were just stupid. Personally my favourite performance of his in a championship was the 800 in Prague 78, as it was the only time when a title was at stake that he committed himself from the start. We know it failed, but it was a glorious failure. If it had worked, then he might have had more confidence to adopt this approach in the 800 in Moscow as he surely would have burned off the opposition - like Oliszaryenko did. Ovett should have been able to beat Coe in the 1500, but as Steve Cram has recounted, Ovett seemed beaten psychologically before the race. In his peak Ovett kicked with 200 to go, not 100, and at his best I think he would have done this in Moscow to take gold. In fact I think he ran the penultimate 100 in both Prague and Dusseldorf in under 12 seconds, the just strode through the line - if he had done this in Moscow he would surely have won.

[Daisy]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Has Coe always been affable?

My sister sent him a letter addressed to Seb Coe, Sheffield. I guess the post office knew his address and about two weeks after that she got a signed picture in return.

[gh]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

My first meeting w/ Seb was a delight. Leaving the Rome airport after the '81 World Cup was one of the great zoos of all time. Finally got through the line for a flite to London with only minutes to spare, as did Seb from the kiosk next to me. We both broke into a run (because there was serious doubt if we'd get to the gate in time) and while huffing & puffing—me, not him—i introduced myself, and we had a delightful conversation all the way to the gate.

On the plane (it was a BA flite), he spent the entire 2 hours or so signing autographs for literally everybody on the plane and never lost his smile or cheery demeanor.

I've still never figured out why he didn't make it in politics. From that moment on I had him tagged as future PM.

(oh, I guess his POLITICS just might have had something to do with it :mrgreen: )

[JumboElliott]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Has Coe always been affable?

[gh]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I've talked to Ovett twice. Well, the first time wasn't much of a talk. He showed up at the '79 NCAA in Champaign (courtesy Nike, probably) and a mutual friend in England had said I should tell him hi. I introduced myself and said that so-and-so said I should say hi, and he in so many words told me to piss off.

But then we then ended up at the same dinner table at a World Cup function in Madrid in '01 and I've rarely enjoyed anybody's company so much. Much laughing and joking and telling of tales out of class.

I figured all those years in Oz had worked wonders in the geniality department.

[kuha]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

The reason why the recent BBC documentary about Moscow appears to praise Coe more than Ovett, is because Ovett steadfastly refuses to help, advise or answer any questions about the event.

And this goes way back. The only significant figure missing from the great 1994 "Bannister dinner" in London was Ovett. I admire him tremendously, but honestly don't understand this "screw you" attitude toward the larger sport.