Ovett vs Coe movie

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.

It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.

The Commonwealth 800 for Cram was run exactly as he liked to run them; even splits, someone in front up to 600m giving him drafting and all out for the last 200m.
His splits were 51.7/51.5. (25.2, 26.5, 26.4, 25.0).
His 400 pb was only 48.1 from 85, so he wouldn't have flourished off a 50 sec first lap. 51.0 was probably perfect, as he was able to maintain that speed longer than most.

The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.
He has admitted that he was "all out" over the last 200m. He said at the time that he could hear the crowd going wild with 150m to go, and believed at the time that this was because McKean must be closing on him, so he went as hard as he could.
For someone with limited 23/48 speed, he wasn't going to run much faster than he did in Zurich 85.

I think this post is rather unfair. The opposition wasn't weak - McKean and Elliott were both world ranked 800 runners. The splits were fairly even (in fact a negative split) but that is a rarity in what was a very fast championship race - indeed about the sort of time Rudisha ran to win in 09, off a faster first lap. And if he was all out over the last 200, is it any wonder when he completed that last sector in 25 flat? That's a sprint finish by any standards!

I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit. He ran 1:43 in a Championship (not in a paced circuit race) and looked unbeatable on the day. Only Rudisha in 12 has impressed me more, although I think Cruz in 84 was on a similar level.

[Powell]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit.

Seriously? Far and away better than 1:41.73 :?: :shock:

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

I think this was far and away the most impressive 800 ever to have been run by a Brit.

Seriously? Far and away better than 1:41.73 :?: :shock:

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

Really!? Are you serious?
Neither of Coe's WR runs were WR attempts, and I have that from the horse's mouth. Both are superior performances to anything Cram ran over the distance. 1.5 sec is an eternity at that level.
Coe's Oslo run had Boit in the field. Heard of him? Pretty decent 2 lap runner. If he couldn't stay with Coe after the first lap then that isn't Coe's problem. He put in a 24.8 200m from 400 to 600, more impressive than Cram's 25.0 in a race 1 sec slower.
It is also easier to run fast in a race as long as you have no obstruction. Cram had drafting from 200 to 500m in his Commonwealth win, and someone to aim at in front up to 600m. That is far more beneficial than running totally alone with no drafting for the last 400m. Cram went through 400 in 51.7, Coe was 2 secs faster in 49.7. Completely different ball game.
There is no way Cram could have handled a sub 50 sec first 400, not with a pb of 48.1 in a tt from height of powers in summer 85, and he is on record as stating so.
Cram's run in the Commonwealth was no more impressive than Coe's Stuttgart run, where he ran c 810m (worth more like 1:43.2 on the rails) in worse conditions (heavy rain) after a heat and semi the 2 days before. Cram had 3 days rest between the semi and final.
Coe's last 200m in Stuttgart was 24.8, running at least 2.5m wide. That's equivalent to a 24.5 on the rails as per Cram had in Edinburgh.
The field in the Commonwealth final was far weaker. Elliott had only just broken 1:45 (1:44.8), a week or so before, the first time he had done so since 1983, some 3 years prior.
McKean had a pb of 1:46.05 going into 1986, and his 1:44.87 run in Edinburgh was a pb. He had always stated that the Europeans were his target for reaching a peak, and a look at the splits in both races confirm this. His last 200m in Edinburgh was 26.1, whereas in Stuttgart it was a whole second faster, 25.1. And his finishing time in the Euros was a new pb, 1:44.61.
Cram had stated his intent from early in 86 that he would reach a peak for the Commonwealths, and 'hold it' to the Europeans. His only rivals were a 1:44.8 Elliott and an up and coming McKean who had not yet broken 1:45.
Cram's run was magnificent, but it was certainly made to look the more so by the way the race played out (even splits, lots of drafting, only c2.5m extra run on 3rd bend), the lack of real rivals and the fact that it was more of a 1 off circuit race than a proper Championship series with 3 or 4 races in 3 or 4 days, when they were run significantly below 1:50.

[berkeley]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

Really!? Are you serious? ...

Based on past posts, Rog is a well-known Coe-ophobe (for the record, I agree on a personal level, but the guy was a magnificent athlete and I try to separate the two), so I think you can take his statement about the superiority of Cram's run with a grain of salt. Thanks for lining up the evidence so nicely though.

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Yeah - Coe ran his time in a paced world record attempt with zero competition. Cram ran his time in an actual competitive race and looked uncannily strong. I think winning a championship in a fast time is more impressive than what was essentially a paced solo run.

Really!? Are you serious? ...

Based on past posts, Rog is a well-known Coe-ophobe (for the record, I agree on a personal level, but the guy was a magnificent athlete and I try to separate the two), so I think you can take his statement about the superiority of Cram's run with a grain of salt. Thanks for lining up the evidence so nicely though.

"Coe-ophobe"? I've never been so bizarrely insulted! Get you isinbaeyeva!

[eldanielfire]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.

So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.

Excellent synopsis. Exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't put into words as succinctly as yourself. Cheers.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Utter nonsense. Coe was firmly middle class. His Dad was highly educated (working class boy with scholarship to Westminster) and he had managerial jobs throughout Seb's life. His Mum was from Kensington and went to bloody RADA.

So education means you can't be working class now?

Are you also aware that the post war period RADA was famous for it's volume of working class actors? The whole period was actually Burton, O'Toole, Harris etc. The post war period was known for considerable work class achievements.

I suppose it's partly the ridiculous and fake class boundaries. Coe's dad was a working class communist who made a success of a factory in a poor part of the UK. Coe went to state school, had to help his father out in the factory and certainly didn't have any privilages not available to Ovett who was hardly disadvantaged as his mum owned a business. But the class thing seems to me to be something placed upon both of them and neither have backgrounds that easily fit into one or another.

Admittedly there was never a universally agreed defintion of middle class in the 1970s, However, all of them included the level of educational attainment, home ownership and type of work. So, a man like Peter Coe was born into a working class family but went to a grammar school and on to further education before becoming a manager and a home owner would have met anyone's definition of middle class at the time. Ditto actors who went through RADA and ended up being millionaires living in mansions left the working class.

For my sins I read Sociology at University. Class as a topic has always bored me. But you brought it up and made a statement about Coe's class that is simply factually incorrect.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.

It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.



The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.

stand by my contention that the conditions in Edinburgh were horrible (certainly relative to any other fast 800 metre race I can think of). My recollection of sitting there, freezing my bollocks off may not be worth much to you but look at the video of the race: there are puddles all over the track and the crowd are all dressed in coats and waterproofs.

[Rog]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

[quote=John G]

Cram was wrong about his limit then. The run in Edinburgh in horrible conditions, with no one to push him was worth a lot more than 1:42.8. I was there and it was the best 800 I saw live until Rudisha in 2012.

It was certainly an awesome performance, but it was made to look so much more impressive by the weak opposition. It was basically a one off circuit run, coming 3 days after the heat in which he ran 1:51. A very weak Championship. It certainly wasn't a patch on Cruz's 1:43.0 after 4 races in 4 days.



The conditions in Edinburgh may not have been warm and balmy but they were hardly 'horrible'.

stand by my contention that the conditions in Edinburgh were horrible (certainly relative to any other fast 800 metre race I can think of). My recollection of sitting there, freezing my bollocks off may not be worth much to you but look at the video of the race: there are puddles all over the track and the crowd are all dressed in coats and waterproofs.[/quote:3is2u65z]

That's my memory of the race too - from watching it on TV, admittedly. Those conditions must have slowed Cram down. But what's visual proof in the face of blatant Coe-ophobia?

[deanouk]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

stand by my contention that the conditions in Edinburgh were horrible (certainly relative to any other fast 800 metre race I can think of). My recollection of sitting there, freezing my bollocks off may not be worth much to you but look at the video of the race: there are puddles all over the track and the crowd are all dressed in coats and waterproofs.

I don't doubt it was cold, and it was not the most perfect conditions for running, but the term "horrible" is hardly warranted. There was no wind; look at the video showing the athletes getting ready. Their hair is stationary, their vests are still. It certainly wasn't raining before or during the race. There are no puddles on the track; a slight surface dampness in one place just after the start, but definitely no puddles.
They are running in dry conditions with no discernable wind for just over 1 min 40. A cool temperature does not slow you down to any large extent in such a short race.

Here is a link to the video: -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSI1ZPIvtu8

Now the conditions in the European final the following month were far worse; cold, rain and lots of surface water, and the performance there was as good as in Edinburgh. Notice how the officials in Stuttgart have the hoods of their waterproofs up, while those in Edinburgh don't! That should tell you something about the relative conditions of those two races.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z2timGYvA4

Also, as I've said before, Cram's heat was run in 1:50 something 3 days before the final. That has to be the weakest preliminary requirement of any 'Championship' I can recall. It was basically a one off race, not a series of 3 or 4 in that many days. It is easier to run quickly in such a scenario, than having already run 1:46/1:47's 2 or 3 times in the previous 2 days.

[gh]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

and just when I thought Downton Abbey was about a system of long ago, I discover it's alive and well! Thanks for the entertainment :mrgreen:

[Bruce Kritzler]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

John G.,
I was watching the meet also. The backstretch stands were cold all week as the wind would blow through them. The final day we sat in the homestretch, and it was much more protected. Definitely one of the coldest meets I remember.

[John G]

Re: Ovett vs Coe movie

and just when I thought Downton Abbey was about a system of long ago, I discover it's alive and well! Thanks for the entertainment :mrgreen:

We never should have introduced sarcasm to The Colonies. Some people just don't know their place.