Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

[ridge004]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

I'll add one of my favorite runners ever, Dr Arthur Wint of Jamaica, since he won Olympic medals in both.

To a lesser extent, Tom Courtney, who I believe won the NCAA 440 but of course was primarily an 800 runner, winning Olympic gold in that event.

And Courtney grabbed a gold in the 1600 relay, .. and anchored it.

Indeed, and an honor to be the anchor when that team included (If I recall correctly) the WR-holder in the 400 and the OG champ in the 400.

I enjoy it when top-flight 800 runners go up against 400 runners in the 4x400. Even the ones not noted for open-400 speed (e.g., Arnie Sowell) often seem to benefit from it.

[KDFINE]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

On another post where the question of substitutions came up, having nothing really to do with the original post - Historical Board, Owens - Peacock I mentioned that the 4 x 400 order in 1956 was Jenkins, Jones, Mashburn and Courtney. Jim Lea was injured, and Lou Jones was overweight. By the Olympics, only Jones, Lea and McKenley had ever run faster than Courtney's 45.8 in Bakersfield in June, 1956. Rhoden and Jenkins had also run 45.8 prior to Courtney.

[catson52]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

On another post where the question of substitutions came up, having nothing really to do with the original post - Historical Board, Owens - Peacock I mentioned that the 4 x 400 order in 1956 was Jenkins, Jones, Mashburn and Courtney. Jim Lea was injured, and Lou Jones was overweight. By the Olympics, only Jones, Lea and McKenley had ever run faster than Courtney's 45.8 in Bakersfield in June, 1956. Rhoden and Jenkins had also run 45.8 prior to Courtney.

Running order for the 1956 final looked incorrect - I recalled Lou Jones led off. I checked two sources: Jones, Mashburn, Jenkins, Courtney.

[mrbowie]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

Combo runners that can excel at 400-800 are very rare because they are two completely different events.

One way to look at it is that 800 is 100 percent farther than 400. I realize this may seem like an oversimplification, but one event relies on speed, while the other relies on stamina.

A different type of stride, drive and tempo are used in each event.

I see it in horses all the time and we breed for that. We have sprinters, milers and middle distance horses. Sprinters run 5 to 7 furlongs and are ineffective at a mile. A miler is out of his element and unable to land a blow in a sprint. A middle distance runner needs 10 to 12 furlongs to be effective.

[KDFINE]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

catson52. I relied upon my copy of "The Encyclopedia of Athletics" since my 1956 Olympic issue of T&Fn is harder to find and is in such a fragile state. But since I'll take T&Fn over a book from England (even if I'd bought it through T&Fn), you are indeed correct about the running order.

[Halfmiler2]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

There is also the occasional 400H/800 runner - Dave Patrick comes to mind - 400H runners need even more strength than 400m runners.

I did the 440/880 in college -well below the elite level - and it is tough because they are such different events. My novel "Relay" is about a high school 400/800 guy.

The indoor 600 used to help bridge the gap but that is run less commonly now than in the old days.

[KDFINE]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

Didn't Harald Schmid also run the half?

[Powell]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

I was wondering why 400m/800m runners are historically rare?

That's just because these events are so different, more so than any other sequence of distances of the x-2x type (200-400 comes closest).

It's sufficient to look at how much slower the average speed is at 800 compared to the 400. Using the current men's WRs:

100 to 200: 0.2% slowdown
200 to 400: 11.1%
400 to 800: 14.4%
800 to 1500: 8.2%
1500 to 3000: 6.5%
3000 to 5000: 3.0%
5000 to 10000: 4.0%
10000 to half marathon: 5.0%
half marathon to marathon: 5.4%

[TN1965]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

Combo runners that can excel at 400-800 are very rare because they are two completely different events.

One way to look at it is that 800 is 100 percent farther than 400. I realize this may seem like an oversimplification, but one event relies on speed, while the other relies on stamina.

A different type of stride, drive and tempo are used in each event.

I see it in horses all the time and we breed for that. We have sprinters, milers and middle distance horses. Sprinters run 5 to 7 furlongs and are ineffective at a mile. A miler is out of his element and unable to land a blow in a sprint. A middle distance runner needs 10 to 12 furlongs to be effective.

400m is majority anaerobic and 800m in majority aerobic, at least according to this study,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11194103

[no one]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

one of my favorites, nationally prominent, just shy of world levels (maybe not)

9.4, 20.7, 46.9 and 1:47.6: amazing range ... early 60s

Steve Haas

seems like somebody mentioned another athlete, on this board, some time back, with similar PRs. But can't remember name, if it was really posted


Lon Myers?

Lonewolf had (I believe) similar versatility

[KDFINE]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

In the early 1960s Bill Crothers, George Kerr, Jack Yerman, and Manfred Kinder were all pretty successful over both distances. I don't know about Kinder, but the other three were very active on the indoor circuit running the 600 (yards).

[TN1965]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

There is also the occasional 400H/800 runner - Dave Patrick comes to mind - 400H runners need even more strength than 400m runners.

Brandon Johnson. World Junior silver medalist in 400H and now US bronze medalist and WC semifinalist in 800.

[kuha]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

one of my favorites, nationally prominent, just shy of world levels (maybe not)

9.4, 20.7, 46.9 and 1:47.6: amazing range ... early 60s

Steve Haas

seems like somebody mentioned another athlete, on this board, some time back, with similar PRs.

I'd guess Jim Kemp came pretty close to those stats; I know he was a pretty serious at both the 200 and 800.

[runforlife]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

A miler is out of his element and unable to land a blow in a sprint.

Lydiard said that if he could train Henry Carr he would break the mile WR with consummate ease. I don't doubt that he would have been a great miler. Of course he was a legend in his events.

[kuha]

Re: Why are 400m/800m runners rare?

Lydiard said that if

In the real world, doing is always a hell of lot harder than saying….