1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

<<1500 4:50.8
>4:50.6 4:49.7.... Any more
>thoughts??>>


Yes! in any idaliezed competition, imagine it coming down to the 1500, where the three of them--incredibly amazing--have PBs that would project to a blanket finish!

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

Here are their respective best decathlon marks from Zarnowski's classic book The Decathlon:
Mathias Campbell Johnson
100m 10.8 10.5 10.5
LJ 7.14m 7.33 7.55
SP 15.34m 14.76 15.85
HJ 1.90m 1.90 1.89
400m 50.2 48.8 47.9
110h 14.6 14.0 14.2
SP 48.83 44.98 51.98
PV 4.00m 3.66 4.10
JT 62.20m 57.08 72.59
1500 4:50.8 4:50.6 4:49.7

I don't have the scoring charts handy but Rafer looks like the best with Mathias and Milt fighting out for second. There are other factors like number of competitions that these occured in, age when these were done (i.e. Mathias would have improved esp. in the field events had be competed into his mid-20's, etc.) and performances in big meets. Any more thoughts??

[Russ7291]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

So it was. But perhaps a 17 year old would have improved at a considerable rate between the Trials and the Games, and perhaps the Games' score was weather-affected to a greater degree than the difference between the Games score and the Trials score. Also, did Heino Lipp ever end up getting to a major meet--say the Europeans, and do we have a PR from him for that level of meet? I have a Zarnowski book at home that should reveal this but I don't have it with me.

[gh]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

That's why the comparison wasn't between the OG score and Lipp. It was Mathias from the OT. His OG score was c100 point slower than that.

[Russ7291]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

Just wanted to say that one shouldn't make a strict comparison between Mathias and Lipp based on Mathias' score at the 1948 Games, since the weather for that decathlon was very bad.

[parkerclay]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

Does anyone have any info on the personal bests of all three of these athletes?

[1.97hjsteve]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

curiosity kills the cat.... end of this inquiry !! thank you.....

[gh]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

In this day and age I was going to chide you (since you know your way around the Net well enough to get here) for not simply Googling for him, but that wouldn't help, becuase all the good references, it turns out, are under Stephen.

But I'll save you some time. The following is part of a column from cbs.sportsline.com from a couple of years back:

<<Talent scout Stephen Wacaser, whose recruiting service Assists, Loose Balls and Turnovers, was subscribed to by almost every Division I program and most NBA teams, has run into legal trouble again. The Springfield, Ill., native, who has battled a gambling addiction and a checkered past to emerge as a well-respected scout of prep and junior college talent, turned himself into the FBI last week. He faces federal charges of bank robbery in the April holdup of a downtown Pensacola, Fla., bank. Wacaser, 49, who was often hired by colleges to lecture players about the 39 months he spent in prison in the early 1990s, faces up to 20 years in prison term if convicted. He was charged last year with robbing a hotel cashier in Illinois.>>

And to think, I let this guy house-sit my place for two weeks when I left for the '72 Olympics!!! He's a clear winner of the who's-the-most-interesting-T&FN-employee-of-all-time contest.

[Jefferson Buffalo]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

>3rd request to Garry: Who is Steve Wacaser ??!!<

If he told you, he'd have to kill you.

[1.97hjsteve]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

3rd request to Garry: Who is Steve Wacaser ??!!

[billthedog]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

>Mathias owes
>his '48 gold to Joe Stalin, since it was his
>policies which kept Heino Lipp gulaged, and away
>from the Games.

Probably true that Lipp, an Estonian I guess, would not have been allowed to compete outside the Soviet Union, but he wasn't singled out: there were no Soviet athletes at the 1948 Olympics.

[1.97hjsteve]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

I repeat, who is Steve Wacaser ??!!

[gh]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

OK, serious answer (sorry, but I couldn't resist yanking Bob's chain), based solely on "feel" as there's no real science that can be invoked: 1. Johnson; 2. Campbell; 3. Mathias.

Not that it's completely relevant, but note how they rate in individual World Rankings terms. Interestingly, the common denominator is the 110H, where all ranked. That's Campbell's only individual event, but he ranked four times and was even No. 1 in the world.

Johnson and Matthias each ranked once in the hurdles and Johnson added an LJ ranking and Mathias a DT ranking.

I think Mathias rates higher in public perception than he should simply becuase of his "boy wonder" status in 1948, which makes him a 2-time Olympic gold medalist, which has nothing to do with ultimate talent. Mathias owes his '48 gold to Joe Stalin, since it was his policies which kept Heino Lipp gulaged, and away from the Games. For it was Lipp who was No. 1 in the T&FN World Rankings that year, not Mathias. Lipp had scores of 7584 and 7780, the latter a full 556 points than the American's best. Also have to remember that in 1948 many European athletes who should have been in their prime were either dead or living on subsistence diets. Mathias was in the right place at the right time.

Lest anyone think I'm somehow trashing Mathias, I hasten to say that I'm not. I spent some time with him in Stockholm a few years back and he's a wonderful guy. And he went on to become a legit WR holder. In fact, he set an NCAA feat that's unlikely to be matched: at the 1952 Nationals he scored in both the 110H (2nd) and DT (6th). And in '51 he had scored in the shot (6th). Incredible-incredible athlete, but still not as good as Johnson or Campbell.

[1.97hjsteve]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

ok, I will bite..... who is Steve Wacaser ??!!

[gh]

Re: 1956: Rafer, Milt or Mathias

Based on hearing him speak, I'm convinced that Steve Wacaser would have won a decathlon/100m freestyle/parallel bars triple at Munich in '72.