Women's Heptathlon and the 1999 Javelin Change

[polevaultpower]

I am converting old Women's Decathlon scores, and I remembered there was some change to the Women's javelin in 1999. But doing a quick google search, it looks like they left the scoring table for the Heptathlon alone?

[El Toro]

I am converting old Women's Decathlon scores, and I remembered there was some change to the Women's javelin in 1999. But doing a quick google search, it looks like they left the scoring table for the Heptathlon alone?

Yes, with the low grade technical skills and at the low distances most heptathletes threw, there was no significant aerodynamic difference between the two implements. It was sensible not to change the scoring on this basis. Tessa Sanderson was about the only one who would have any significant difference between the two versions but one case should not be extrapolated to the whole population.

[Trickstat]

I remember being rather bemused that when the Men's javelin changed in 1986 that the World Decathlon record wasn't reset. I didn't expect the tables (that had been introduced in 1985) to be re-set. When many decathletes were probably losing about 10% of their previous distances I thought the previous records would have been wiped. Following on from that precedent, it was inevitable that no changes would be made when the Women's implement was updated.

[mump boy]

In light of the dramatic improvement in Hep javelin performances this year do tables need reviewing ?

[El Toro]

In light of the dramatic improvement in Hep javelin performances this year do tables need reviewing ?

I don't think so. Some women are finally throwing properly and getting the reward they deserve so why change anything? Dart throwers like KJT should continue to lose big time in this event.

[El Toro]

When many decathletes were probably losing about 10% of their previous distances I thought the previous records would have been wiped.

Most men were as technically as crap as the women but because of the extra distance they were throwing through strength alone, aerodynamic effects were potentially greater. However, a 1 in 30 chance of actually hitting a throw through the point at the right angle means maybe one superior aerodynamic effect on a throw in every 10 decathlons. The chances of this happening at the same time as peak performance in the other 9 events was even more remote, so no need for adjustments impactin on every throw.

[Gabriella2]

You can't change an implement and then not the tables. The change in weighting absolutely affected scores. Even if it were 50cm, that could make the difference between a barrier breaking score and not, a record or not. The tables should have changed.

[gh]

I was gobsmacked when they didn't change the tables. The only thing I can think of is that the heavy Brit influence that was in place at the IAAF at the time didn't want Daley Thompson to lose his status.

The conspiracy theorist in me also tends to believe tales that Bubka may have been behind the decision (or non-decision) to change the PV when they went to the short pegs, which was a massive change, Lavillenie's subsequent jumping notwithstanding.

[El Toro]

I was gobsmacked when they didn't change the tables. The only thing I can think of is that the heavy Brit influence that was in place at the IAAF at the time didn't want Daley Thompson to lose his status.

I can't comment on the existence of British conspiracy, but I am still of the view that it made no practical difference in scoring. I vaguely recall looking at this years ago and you couldn't tell if a particular year was pre or post specification change based on decathlon distances. Random variations in technique have a much more significant impact on distance at decathlon level than aerodynamic performance. Obviously, for those throwing 30-40m further, there was a clear impact.

I also note that they didn't adjust the tables to take into account the introduction of Mondo Super Duper Yee Hah XXX Springboard (tm) track surface either.

[polevaultpower]

When I googled it, reports circa 1999 indicated that they originally planned to change the Hep record, and that it had been a mistake not to change the table for the men... but no talk of changing it for the men at that point.

I'm guessing since they had not changed for the men, it was hard to justify only changing the women once there was pushback.

[18.99s]

The lack of rescoring the heptathlon may have contributed to Carolina Kluft's early departure from the event.

After having won World and Olympic gold and broken the 7000 point barrier, she said she considered the world record to be out of reach and felt she'd already accomplished everything she could possibly do in the event. Maybe an extra 100 points to her javelin score (or deducting that from JJK's score) could have convinced her that the world record was worth trying for.

[Trickstat]

I was gobsmacked when they didn't change the tables. The only thing I can think of is that the heavy Brit influence that was in place at the IAAF at the time didn't want Daley Thompson to lose his status.

.

I think changing the tables as soon as the specification changes is not a practical consideration because of a lack of data on the effect of the change at different levels of performance. Other than substantial at 80m+, fairly significant at 60m, minimal below 40m.

I would have just expected a similar thing to have happened as did in the javelin event itself in that the world record would have been reset and the best performance at the end of 1986 being ratified as the new WR as long as it complied with the usual criteria.

IIRC, the new record would have been Daley Thompson's score set at that year's European Champs in Stuttgart which would have remained as the record until Dan O'Brien's emergence in the early '90s.

However, my feeling is that in a long-term sense the effect is not that great overall and that what advantage a Jenner, Avilov, Toomey etc may have gained in this event compared with current decathletes is probably negated by the effect of faster tracks and equipment and technical developments in events like PV and 110mH.

[mump boy]

t

I don't think so. Some women are finally throwing properly and getting the reward they deserve so why change anything? Dart throwers like KJT should continue to lose big time in this event.

Of course but that wouldn't be the point of a change !! it would be to reconcile today's scores against historic performances.

[26mi235]

My somewhat vague understanding is that it made the most difference on throws that not only were longer (thus more important for men due to strength differences) but also getting the technique right by throwing right through the point. While full-time throwers could work on their technique to do that, in the decathlon, the competitors would not have had much time to work on that level of expertise.

[El Toro]

My somewhat vague understanding is that it made the most difference on throws that not only were longer (thus more important for men due to strength differences) but also getting the technique right by throwing right through the point. While full-time throwers could work on their technique to do that, in the decathlon, the competitors would not have had much time to work on that level of expertise.

This is exactly my point. It actually took a significant amount of technical skill to exploit the aerodynamic potential of the old javelins, especially the men. The ones most able to do this were specialist throwers throwing the big distances not mult event athletes.

50-60 m for men and 40-50m for women would not gain much in the way of distance even with a skilled thrower.

Also, people forget that there was a negative side to the more sensitive aerodynamics of the old javelins where you would lose more distance from a poorly angled javelin plus you were more likely to foul and lose good throws.

Overall, any differences between old and new spec was a wash at the distances thrown by low skilled throwers, so I seen no value in worrying about chaning to the scoring tables - it's a non event.