Oldest at first sub-4:00?

[AyZiggy]

Who in history was the oldest when they first broke 4:00?

I was asked this earlier today and I thought it would be fairly easy to extract data from alltime-athletics.com to answer the question. Well, not all dates of birth appear to be correct and that's making it harder.

I know George Young was 34 when he first did it. Has anyone been older than that?

[gh]

If you look at the sub-4:00 register in our Archive, you'll see that they're listed with their first breakage.

[mcgato]

Using pela's lists, I put together this list. I think some of the dates are incorrect in his database, so some of those ages are obviously wrong. There are some there older than Young, though, that may be legit.

Age: 70.52: Born 04-08-1941 - 11-02-2012 : Daniel McDaid (IRL)
Age: 52.14: Born 07-12-1941 - 28-01-1994 : Noel Carroll (IRL)
Age: 51.62: Born 05-01-1967 - 18-08-2018 : Brian Blutreich (USA)
Age: 47.96: Born 10-02-1970 - 27-01-2018 : Mike Stevenson (USA)
Age: 38.66: Born 05-06-1969 - 02-02-2008 : John Richardson (USA)
Age: 36.47: Born 15-12-1956 - 05-06-1993 : Ronnie Harris (USA)
Age: 35.39: Born 29-08-1980 - 19-01-2016 : Eric Speakman (NZL)
Age: 34.61: Born 24-07-1937 - 04-03-1972 : George Young (USA)
Age: 32.65: Born 22-12-1962 - 18-08-1995 : Reuben Chesang (KEN)

[bambam1729]

That's a pretty good mark for Brian Blutreich - must be the world's best ever for a discus thrower

[mcgato]

Looking at the list that I compiled, beyond the obvious incorrect ones, I come up with Young as the legit oldest first timer.
Richardson seems to share a common name with someone older, probably born in 1984 if he went to UKentucky
Harris was age 31 in an article in 1996
Speakman was in college through 2012

[Tuariki]

Looking at the list that I compiled, beyond the obvious incorrect ones, I come up with Young as the legit oldest first timer.
Richardson seems to share a common name with someone older, probably born in 1984 if he went to UKentucky
Harris was age 31 in an article in 1996
Speakman was in college through 2012

Speakman was born in 1990. He was 25 when he first ran a sub 4

[El Toro]

Using pela's lists, I put together this list. I think some of the dates are incorrect in his database, so some of those ages are obviously wrong. There are some there older than Young, though, that may be legit.

Age: 70.52: Born 04-08-1941 - 11-02-2012 : Daniel McDaid (IRL)
Age: 52.14: Born 07-12-1941 - 28-01-1994 : Noel Carroll (IRL)
Age: 51.62: Born 05-01-1967 - 18-08-2018 : Brian Blutreich (USA)
Age: 47.96: Born 10-02-1970 - 27-01-2018 : Mike Stevenson (USA)
Age: 38.66: Born 05-06-1969 - 02-02-2008 : John Richardson (USA)
Age: 36.47: Born 15-12-1956 - 05-06-1993 : Ronnie Harris (USA)
Age: 35.39: Born 29-08-1980 - 19-01-2016 : Eric Speakman (NZL)
Age: 34.61: Born 24-07-1937 - 04-03-1972 : George Young (USA)
Age: 32.65: Born 22-12-1962 - 18-08-1995 : Reuben Chesang (KEN)

I'm not sure of pela's workflow but I have found similar problems due, I think, to some sort of auto complete some where along the line. They are usually either:

1. matching two John Smiths and assigning the younger's performances to the DOB of the older athlete, or

2. where a partial name match to another athlete in the database gets assigned to the shorter name, such as John Smithson gets entered as John Smith.

For the first error, look for all performance by that name and if you find earlier times from decades ago, there's good chance that you can find a younger athlete with the same name on the IAAF or other site.

For the second error, if you look for other middle distance runners with names starting with say, "Blu...", you might find a middle distance runner named Blucher or similiar. Cross check the closest names with IAAF and you might find the one that actually ran that time.

Don't forget to let pela know about any errors you find and provide source data/links for corrections.

[El Toro]

For one of your examples, from pela's list we have:

3:57.86 Daniel McDaid IRL 04.08.41 8 New York City 11.02.2012

is actually "David McCarthy IRL" and would match "Da.. Mc... IRL" in a partial match.

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/ireland/david-mccarthy-207941

IAAF data in profile above and Millrose 2012 results data cross check confirms name, date and time.

NYRR Wanamaker Mile
Finals
1 Centrowitz, Matthew Nike 3:53.92A
2 Batty, Miles B.Y.U. 3:54.54A
3 Heath, Garrett Saucony 3:55.24
4 Kisorio, Silas Unattached 3:55.84
5 Van Ingen, Erik Binghamton 3:56.37
6 O'Hare, Chris Tulsa 3:56.63
7 Levins, Cam So. Utah 3:57.16
8 McCarthy, David Providence 3:57.86
9 Milne, Taylor New Balance 4:00.78
10 Merber, Kyle Columbia 4:02.83
11 Boylan-Pett, Liam N.J.-N.Y. 4:10.86
12 Olmedo, Manuel Nike 4:16.71
-- Wiezcorek, Mark U.S.A. DNF

* Centrowitz breaks the Armory record of 3:54.98 set by Ireland's
Mark Carroll in 2000 while Batty breaks the College record of 3:55.02
by German Fernandez of Oklahoma State in 2009.

[El Toro]

pela:
3:59.23 Brian Blutreich USA 05.01.67 3 Falmouth 18.08.2018

would match "B.. Bl.. USA" otherwise known as 2016 Olympian Ben Blankenship whose IAAF data shows:

18 AUG 2018 Falmouth Aetna Mile USAUSA F F 3. 3:59.23

I'll leave you to sort the rest.

[midwestfan]

Noel Carroll is not listed on Peter Larrson's list of "All Time Best Mile Races" which lists 5042 sub four minute miles. Mark Carroll is only "Carroll" listed between 3:56.0 and 3:59.99. Noel Carroll's Wikipedia page lists his bio as running a sub four minute mile while at Villanova but school records don't list him among their sub 4:00 class.
Noel Carroll was a great 800/880 runner through his years as a master runner and in two Olympics but not the Delany-Liqouri-Patrick-coughlin- O'Sullivan level.

[tandfman]

I'm pretty sure Noel Carroll never ran a sub-4 mile.

[mcgato]

I think that Noel Carroll should be Mark Carroll. Mark Carroll ran an indoor mile in 1994 in 3:56.44 which matches the time listed by pela for Noel Carroll. The result in pela's database says that he finished 1st in Boston on January 28, 1994. I don't have much for TFN in 1994, but others could probably look it up.

[Bruce Kritzler]

Mark Carroll ran about 3:56 indoors at Florida just ahead of David Krummenaker around that time(1994).