Armin Hary's IAAF PB?

[proofs in the pudd'in]

I noticed that the IAAF has his semifinal 10.3 for Rome as his PB but not his Final 10.2 - any reason why?

[El Toro]

I noticed that the IAAF has his semifinal 10.3 for Rome as his PB but not his Final 10.2 - any reason why?

I think that might be an error in their database. They have all his
Rome results as handtime except the SF which is listed as 10.30e.

However, the SF was actually 10.3h (10.41e) according to https://www.sports-reference.com/oly...in-hary-1.html

[proofs in the pudd'in]

I also noticed that IAAF has a 10.0h for June 21, 1960 in Zurich. And in Wikipedia they have this same mark but also note that it had an auto timing for this race which says it was 10.25. Which makes complete sense. If that is the case why not give him credit for the 10.25 as his PB?

From reading this it seems that some races even back then were being auto timed along with the hand times.

[El Toro]

I'm not an expert of that era but I'm sure Richard Hymans (ryhmans) or gh will know much, much more.

As far as I know, the hand time was the official time until the 1970's, so 10.0h was Hary's official PB. Later statisticians have tracked down electronic times but these are stat times, not official.

Some statisticians keep separate lists and some add the standard 0.24 to the hand time. IAAF does the latter on their alltime list giving Hary a 10.24 equivalent. However, their database seems to give a preference to electronic times if availble, hence the PB 10.30 based on incorrect data entry. Hope that makes sense.

As far as Hary's best, I think that Hary ran 10.0h in 1958?, the first to do so, but this was rejected because the track had a slight downhill just outside of IAAF specs.

He then ran a 10.0h at Zurich that was then cancelled after the fact as a false start. I have read, alternatively, that the starter was too scared to recall (he fucked up) or that the second cartridge failed to fire (he thought of a better excuse). Who knows?

I beieve that this is the finish of that 10.0h 100m.

https://www.welt.de/img/sport/leichtathletik/mobile163055177/5911627707-ci23x11-w780/Armin-Hary.jpg

Due to the false start, they re-ran the race 50 minutes later but only three other runners backed up. I beleive this is the picture of that WR race.

https://www.welt.de/img/iphone_app/historyapp/mobile100938037/4881621877-ci23x11-w960/History-Juni-21-06-1960-Weltrekord-BM-Lifestyle-Zuerich-jpg.jpg

Most lists seem to show that the legitimate 10.0h was 10.25e but I have also seen articles saying that the false start was 10.25e and then the second race (WR) was 10.16e. Again, rhymans and gh would probably know the truth.

If you are into branding, Hary said that he set the world record in Adidas and won the Olympics in Puma spikes. He said he got no money for either, he just used the what he thought the best.

I'm sure others will be able to add to the details.

[El Toro]

Most lists seem to show that the legitimate 10.0h was 10.25e but I have also seen articles saying that the false start was 10.25e and then the second race (WR) was 10.16e. Again, rhymans and gh would probably know the truth.

Doh!, I should have searched first. Thanks to the man himself:

You don't need to check. This race was annulled as Hary was ruled to have taken a rolling start. The auto time was 10.16. The race was re-run (with abstentions - most notably the French Senegalese sprinter Abdou Seye) and Hary then ran 10.25 [both races hand timed in 10.0]

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Nice! Thanks.

I'm now curious about how it was auto timed. If both races were also hand-timed at 10.0 but only 'adjusted' to 10.25 and 10.16 how did they 'adjust' these without using a standard adjustment - if they did indeed do that. I'm think there was so sort of actual auto-timing in place along side of the hand time. In 64 Bob Hayes ran an auto time 10.06 with a 10.0h.

[El Toro]

Nice! Thanks.

I'm now curious about how it was auto timed. If both races were also hand-timed at 10.0 but only 'adjusted' to 10.25 and 10.16 how did they 'adjust' these without using a standard adjustment - if they did indeed do that. I'm think there was so sort of actual auto-timing in place along side of the hand time. In 64 Bob Hayes ran an auto time 10.06 with a 10.0h.

In Rome OG and Zurich Weltklasse, the systems were separate and not reconciled or adjusted - the hand time was the official time irrespective of what the auto time was.

This changed in Tokyo to a sort of hybrid system including both hand and auto timing. The Wikipedia article on Fully Automatic Timing (FAT) has this to say:

In 1964, although manual timing was also used at the Olympics, the official times were measured with a FAT system but given the appearance of hand times.

For example, Bob Hayes won the 100 meters in a FAT time of 10.06 seconds, which was converted to an official time of 10.0 seconds, despite the fact that officials with stopwatches had timed Hayes at 9.9 seconds.

The FAT systems in 1964 and 1968 built in a 0.05 second delay, so Hayes' FAT time was measured as 10.01 seconds, which was rounded to 10.0 seconds for official purposes.

The currently understood time of 10.06 has been determined by adding back the 0.05 seconds delay.[16]

The same adjustment has been made to the 1968 Olympics FAT times; Jim Hines' winning time for the 100 meters was measured as 9.89 seconds, subsequently adjusted to 9.95 seconds.

An article by the late Bob Sparks referenced by Wikipedia gives the different rules over time:

(A) I.A.A.F. Rules (fully-automatic timing)
    pre-1964  No formal policy
    1964-70   Photo-finish times start to be used for international 
              championships, but the timer mechanism was adjusted with 
              a delay of 0.05 sec.
              Times rounded off to the nearest tenth
                 e.g. 3:59.95-4:00.04 = 4:00.0
                      4:00.05-4:00.14 = 4:00.1, etc.
              Registration to fifths for events above 1 mile
    1971-76   Timer delay adjustment discontinued
              Registration to fifths for events above 1 mile
    1977-78   Registration in hundredths for events up to 440 yards, 
              and to tenths for track events above 440 yards
    1979-80   Rounding up (instead of to nearest tenth)
                 e.g. 3:59.91-4:00.00 = 4:00.0
                      4:00.01-4:00.10 = 4:00.1, etc.
              Registration unchanged
    1981+     Rounding discontinued for events up to 20km.

[El Toro]

Here's a discussion on this board, on and around FAT. POST I'm sure there will be others.

As mentioned in that thread, the 1912 Olympics is cited as the first Olympics with a version of automated (but not FAT) timing. The starting pistol started the clock but timers hand stopped it.

Starter looked like this:

1912-electronic-start.jpg

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Ok, after reading this stuff it makes sense but what does not make sense is what these guys were thinking. You have automatic timing yet you try to adjust to an 'official' hand time by rounding and adding in a .05 delay. Jeez, why not make it more damn confusing than ever. I'll just go with the auto-timing to figure out these guys' runs no matter the problem since whatever problems they might have had it is not as bad as hand times.

So as far as I can tell the WR progression just using auto-timing with, what I believe is the first auto-timing along side the hand times, are:

1) 1932 Eddie Tolan 10.38 (10.3h) (0.4w)
2) 1948 Barney Elwell 10.35 (10.2h) (NAw)
3) 1960 Armin Hary 10.25 (10.0h) (0.9w)
4) 1964 Bob Hayes 10.06 (10.0h) (1.3w)
5) 1968 Jim Hines 10.03 (9.9h) (0.8w)
6) 1968 Charles Greene 10.02A (9.9h) (2.0w)
7) 1968 Jim Hines 9.95A (9.9h) (0.3w)
8) 1983 Calvin Smith 9.93A (1.4w)
9) 1987 Carl Lewis 9.93 (1.1w)
10) 1988 Carl Lewis 9.92 (1.1w)

Non-Altitude Auto-timed:

1) 1932 Eddie Tolan 10.38 (10.3h) (0.4w)
2) 1948 Barney Elwell 10.35 (10.2h) (NAw)
3) 1960 Armin Hary 10.25 (10.0h) (0.9w)
4) 1964 Bob Hayes 10.06 (10.0h) (1.3w)
5) 1968 Jim Hines 10.03 (9.9h) (0.8w)
6) 1977 Silvio Leonard 10.03 (1.7w)
7) 1980 James Sanford 10.02 (1.0w)
8) 1981 Carl Lewis 10.00 (0.0w)
9) 1982 Carl Lewis 10.00 (1.9w)
10) 1983 Carl Lewis 9.97 (1.5w)
11) 1983 Calvin Smith 9.97 (1.6w)
12) 1984 Mel Lattney 9.96 (0.1w)
13) 1987 Carl Lewis 9.93 (1.1w)
14) 1988 Carl Lewis 9.92 (1.1w)

[gh]

the IAAF WR Progression book by Richard Hymans has detailed auto-timed progression.

First two are a 10.64 by Ralph Metcalfe at the '32 AAU, then a 10.53 by Tolan at the '32 OG (quarterfinal). Metcalfe is also a 10.38 behind Tolan, and so on....

(sorry, don't have time to type it all out)

[proofs in the pudd'in]

the IAAF WR Progression book by Richard Hymans has detailed auto-timed progression.

First two are a 10.64 by Ralph Metcalfe at the '32 AAU, then a 10.53 by Tolan at the '32 OG (quarterfinal). Metcalfe is also a 10.38 behind Tolan, and so on....

(sorry, don't have time to type it all out)

Thanks, Am I correct to think that the timing in the 30s and 40s was not a good as 60s and later? Any wind reading on the above times?

Why was Ralph given the Silver if he had the same 10.38 as Tolan? Surely they could not tell to the thousandth.

[gm]

Any wind reading on the above times?

This is the relevant passage from the must-have Hymans WR progression book:

10.3 “Eddie” Tolan (USA) Los Angeles 01.08.1932
10.3 Ralph Metcalfe (USA) Los Angeles 01.08.1932
Olympic Games, Coliseum (start: +0.2 crosswind, at 50m: -1.4 c/w, finish: +0.4 following wind):
1. Tolan 10.3/10.38 (10.3 - 10.3 - 10.4), 2. Metcalfe (all 3 watches 10.3, not accepted as world record) 10.3/10.38, 3. Arthur Jonath (GER) 10.4 (10.50), 4. George Simpson (USA) 10.5 (10.53), 5. Daniel Joubert (SAF) 10.6 (10.59), 6. Takayoshi Yoshioka (JPN) 10.8 (10.78) – all times checked in 2007 with the Kirby timer

[bambam1729]

Ok, after reading this stuff it makes sense but what does not make sense is what these guys were thinking. You have automatic timing yet you try to adjust to an 'official' hand time by rounding and adding in a .05 delay. Jeez, why not make it more damn confusing than ever. I'll just go with the auto-timing to figure out these guys' runs no matter the problem since whatever problems they might have had it is not as bad as hand times.

So as far as I can tell the WR progression just using auto-timing with, what I believe is the first auto-timing along side the hand times, are:

1) 1932 Eddie Tolan 10.38 (10.3h) (0.4w)
2) 1948 Barney Elwell 10.35 (10.2h) (NAw)
3) 1960 Armin Hary 10.25 (10.0h) (0.9w)
4) 1964 Bob Hayes 10.06 (10.0h) (1.3w)
5) 1968 Jim Hines 10.03 (9.9h) (0.8w)
6) 1968 Charles Greene 10.02A (9.9h) (2.0w)
7) 1968 Jim Hines 9.95A (9.9h) (0.3w)
8) 1983 Calvin Smith 9.93A (1.4w)
9) 1987 Carl Lewis 9.93 (1.1w)
10) 1988 Carl Lewis 9.92 (1.1w)

Non-Altitude Auto-timed:

1) 1932 Eddie Tolan 10.38 (10.3h) (0.4w)
2) 1948 Barney Elwell 10.35 (10.2h) (NAw)
3) 1960 Armin Hary 10.25 (10.0h) (0.9w)
4) 1964 Bob Hayes 10.06 (10.0h) (1.3w)
5) 1968 Jim Hines 10.03 (9.9h) (0.8w)
6) 1977 Silvio Leonard 10.03 (1.7w)
7) 1980 James Sanford 10.02 (1.0w)
8) 1981 Carl Lewis 10.00 (0.0w)
9) 1982 Carl Lewis 10.00 (1.9w)
10) 1983 Carl Lewis 9.97 (1.5w)
11) 1983 Calvin Smith 9.97 (1.6w)
12) 1984 Mel Lattney 9.96 (0.1w)
13) 1987 Carl Lewis 9.93 (1.1w)
14) 1988 Carl Lewis 9.92 (1.1w)

Actually here are the auto-best best marks prior to 1960 - all from Richard Hymans book, which, as GM says, is a must-have. I have converted it into an Excel spreadsheet which both Richard and Glen know about - this is from that:

Event Gdr Mark1 Name NOC Location Nation Event Date
100 m M 10.64 Ralph Metcalfe USA Stanford, California USA USA National Championships 16 Jul 1932
100 m M 10.53 Eddie Tolan USA Los Angeles, California USA Olympic Games 31 Jul 1932
100 m M 10.38 Ralph Metcalfe USA Los Angeles, California USA Olympic Games 1 Aug 1932
100 m M 10.32 Ray Norton USA Thonon-les-Bains FRA International Meet 10 Aug 1958
100 m M 10.32 Jocelyn Delecour FRA Thonon-les-Bains FRA International Meet 10 Aug 1958
100 m M 10.31 Peter Radford GBR Colombes FRA FRA - GBR International Dual Meet 13 Sep 1958
100 m M 10.31 Armin Hary FRG Colombes FRA International Meet 23 May 1959
100 m M 10.31 Jocelyn Delecour FRA Colombes FRA International Meet 23 May 1959

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Actually here are the auto-best best marks prior to 1960 - all from Richard Hymans book, which, as GM says, is a must-have. I have converted it into an Excel spreadsheet which both Richard and Glen know about - this is from that:

Event Gdr Mark1 Name NOC Location Nation Event Date
100 m M 10.64 Ralph Metcalfe USA Stanford, California USA USA National Championships 16 Jul 1932
100 m M 10.53 Eddie Tolan USA Los Angeles, California USA Olympic Games 31 Jul 1932
100 m M 10.38 Ralph Metcalfe USA Los Angeles, California USA Olympic Games 1 Aug 1932
100 m M 10.32 Ray Norton USA Thonon-les-Bains FRA International Meet 10 Aug 1958
100 m M 10.32 Jocelyn Delecour FRA Thonon-les-Bains FRA International Meet 10 Aug 1958
100 m M 10.31 Peter Radford GBR Colombes FRA FRA - GBR International Dual Meet 13 Sep 1958
100 m M 10.31 Armin Hary FRG Colombes FRA International Meet 23 May 1959
100 m M 10.31 Jocelyn Delecour FRA Colombes FRA International Meet 23 May 1959

I thought that Metcalfe and Tolan got the same time yet Metcalfe was awarded the Silver? So why did he get the silver and why did Tolan not make your list for his 10.38?

Any wind and hand times for the 10.32 and 10.31?

[proofs in the pudd'in]

Now I am somewhat curious as to what are the actual primary sources for these times. We keep referring to compiled lists that are different from one another. Where are the actual source notes or papers for these things? I am getting nerdy!