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  • #16
    Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

    >Many of his best opponents were in their late
    >30's, yes but so are Lewis & Tyson. Holyfield was
    >very good into his late 30's as well. You can't
    >compare the Rock at 185 with Lewis at 260..times
    >change. Just like you can't compare Dempsey or
    >Louis with Tyson, Holyfield or Lewis. But
    >Marciano beat all the best boxers of his era.


    >me ask you this..what more could Rocky have done



    I'm not comparing Marciano to the heavyweights of today....Liston was champ in 1962, Marciano in 1956....Ali was champ in 1964...Alot of people consider Marciano the greatest HW of all,I don't even consider him a heavyweight.I think he was below average as a fighter that got very lucky being in the weakest era in the 20th century.I don't think he would have been champ in any other era much less undefeated.
    >in his career??

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

      Why do I even
      >bother?????Ali was a media creation,hmmmmmmm,tell
      >that to Liston's & Frazier's swollen head.

      Ali
      >was the prefect fighting machine.He was tall,long
      >arms,thick skin resistant to cuts,
      very fast,had
      >ther ability to move away from punches,plus an
      >iron jaw when he did get hit.

      The most over
      >rated heavyweight was Rocky Maricano.He was 5
      >ft.10 in. 185 lb with paper thin skin and fought
      >old washed up fighters that gave him tough
      >fights.

      Liston wasn't even hurt by "Clay". He was fast, with very little power. Most overrated champ is Joe Louis - 25 defenses, almost all of them against old fighters or fighters 25 lbs. LIGHTER. Max Schmeling (38 in the rematch), talk about old fighters. Oh that's right, Joe won his title from an old man too. Bum of the month is right. The OWI was behind the media pushing Joe, because if you are really a boxing guru, you would know that they wanted to keep blacks in a good mood, and have Joe a positive figure as he went into the service. That way they could keep up black morale as they drafted them into the service to handle most of the non-combat grunt and grind work. Louis, definitely the most overrated until Ali.

      Marciano? Could take punishment like few others. And as Eddie Murphy and crew joked in Coming to America, "... he beat Joe Louis's ass ..." Joe was always open to overhand rights. That's how old Schmeling beat him the first time, Marciano beat him, and how Jersey Joe kicked his arse all over the ring, even though they gave the fight to Shufflin' Joe. Like it's written above, watch the fights on ESPN classic or elsewhere. Ali couldn't hang with any top heavyweight of today. Speed or no speed. Marciano would be fighting cruiserweight. And Liston would be the media guy now. Because thugs sell. (Liston also died under mysterious circumstances, just before a scheduled interview in which he was going to talk about what really went on in his fights)

      Klitschko sucks. Or I shoud say, both of them do. So does Lewis, just not as much. As weak as the division is today, they're still better than runty Ali, who at his peak would crumple under the strength of any of today's top 20.

      Yeah, watch the Clay/Liston fights. Watch the Clay/Cooper fights. Yeah, as realistic as the decision in say, the De La Hoya / Trinidad fight.

      Maybe you should stick to track.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

        Lennox does not suck. Why do americans always diss him? Because he's a nice guy with a modicum of intelligence? Or because he's not american? When he's prepared (unlike against McCall and that other bum who decked him...name presently escapes me)he's easily the best of his generation. Remember, Tyson at his PRIME paid him $5m. not to fight him. Just because he has a good ring sense and also the desire not to get wacked doesn't diminish him at all. Defense is 50% of boxing. And, he hasn't avoided anybody. No top american would fight him when he should have been at his best, they all avoided him.

        Agree with you about Oscar and Trinidad, Oscar won easily. Oscar decking that mouthy thug Vargas was one of the most pleasurable fights I've seen.

        Other things: I hope Grant retires; hope never to see Gatti-Ward 4; the biggest bum and fraud of all time was The Prince, he made me embarrased to be English!

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

          >



          Why do I even
          >bother?????Ali was a
          >media creation,hmmmmmmm,tell
          >that to Liston's &
          >Frazier's swollen head.

          Ali
          >was the prefect
          >fighting machine.He was tall,long
          >arms,thick
          >skin resistant to cuts,
          very fast,had
          >ther
          >ability to move away from punches,plus an
          >iron
          >jaw when he did get hit.

          The most over
          >rated
          >heavyweight was Rocky Maricano.He was 5
          >ft.10
          >in. 185 lb with paper thin skin and fought
          >old
          >washed up fighters that gave him
          >tough
          >fights.

          Liston wasn't even hurt by
          >"Clay". He was fast, with very little power.
          >Most overrated champ is Joe Louis - 25 defenses,
          >almost all of them against old fighters or
          >fighters 25 lbs. LIGHTER. Max Schmeling (38 in
          >the rematch), talk about old fighters. Oh
          >that's right, Joe won his title from an old
          >man too. Bum of the month is right. The OWI
          >was behind the media pushing Joe, because if you
          >are really a boxing guru, you would know that
          >they wanted to keep blacks in a good mood, and
          >have Joe a positive figure as he went into the
          >service. That way they could keep up black
          >morale as they drafted them into the service to
          >handle most of the non-combat grunt and grind
          >work. Louis, definitely the most overrated
          >until Ali.

          Marciano? Could take punishment
          >like few others. And as Eddie Murphy and crew
          >joked in Coming to America, "... he beat Joe
          >Louis's ass ..." Joe was always open to
          >overhand rights. That's how old Schmeling beat
          >him the first time, Marciano beat him, and how
          >Jersey Joe kicked his arse all over the ring,
          >even though they gave the fight to Shufflin'
          >Joe. Like it's written above, watch the fights
          >on ESPN classic or elsewhere. Ali couldn't hang
          >with any top heavyweight of today. Speed or no
          >speed. Marciano would be fighting
          >cruiserweight. And Liston would be the media
          >guy now. Because thugs sell. (Liston also died
          >under mysterious circumstances, just before a
          >scheduled interview in which he was going to
          >talk about what really went on in his
          >fights)

          Klitschko sucks. Or I shoud say,
          >both of them do. So does Lewis, just not as
          >much. As weak as the division is today, they're
          >still better than runty Ali, who at his peak
          >would crumple under the strength of any of
          >today's top 20.

          Yeah, watch the Clay/Liston
          >fights. Watch the Clay/Cooper fights. Yeah, as
          >realistic as the decision in say, the De La Hoya
          >/ Trinidad fight.

          Maybe you should stick to
          >track.


          I have those Ali fights on VHS,and I totally disagree.He beat Copper's face to a pulp, and no onetold Liston to give up in the corner.Maricano was a total joke that had trouble with hasbeens.Walcott was outpointing Rocky before the lucky punch.I think Moore floored Rocky and there was some sort of delay for Rocky to clear his head.You have your opinion and I have mine.I personally don't think you can carry on a intelligent conversation, so go back to your cave.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

            "I had a bad weakness I kept hid throughout my career. I didn't like to be crowded, and Marciano always crowded his opponents. That's why I say I could never have beaten him." Joe Louis, May, 1990 issue of Boxing Illustrated

            There you go..straight from Joe Louis

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

              >"I had a bad weakness I kept hid throughout my
              >career. I didn't like to be crowded, and Marciano
              >always crowded his opponents. That's why I say I
              >could never have beaten him." Joe Louis, May,
              >1990 issue of Boxing Illustrated

              There you
              >go..straight from Joe Louis


              Listen, you think what you like....Marciano was a joke...He had no boxing skills.He was slow,short,small,no reach,cut easily,fought either bums or old men,never fought a big puncher(so how knows about his chin),was losing to Wlacott bofore a lucky punch,was hurt by Light HW Archie Moore,and was in probably the weakest era in the history on heavyweights.I think Louis was being modest.

              If Marciano would have stayed around a few more years Liston would have KOed him within 3 rds.A short,slow fighter that always moved straight foward would've made a easy fight for Liston or Foreman.Also Louis fought Marciano even ,before his shell of a body gave out in the middle rounds.I have that fight on tape as well as most Marcaino's big fights.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                He wasn't graceful or artistic but Marciano got it done! Moore was a very underrated fighter; he's one of the all-time bests. I don't think Louis would say something like that unless he meant it. Marciano beat every great fighter in his era. I ask the question again - what more could have Marciano done?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                  >He wasn't graceful or artistic but Marciano got
                  >it done! Moore was a very underrated fighter;
                  >he's one of the all-time bests. I don't think
                  >Louis would say something like that unless he
                  >meant it. Marciano beat every great fighter in
                  >his era. I ask the question again - what more
                  >could have Marciano done?

                  And I will answer it again....He won every fight in his weak era...So he couldn't have done more..I will repeat, he wouldn't have been champ in any other era...He "got the job done" against old men and hasbeens....I'm not trying to smash your idol but just stating facts...5 ft 10, 185 lbs,68 in reach,paper thin skin,slow and akward,no boxing skills,not a one punch KO artist..Those are his disadvantages...Now for the advantages..Big heart...In shape,15 rds no problem...Strong body puncher and very aggressive..His aggression would have gotten him KOd against Liston,Foreman,Jeffries,Tyson..Have you ever seen the Marciano vs Clay(what a joke)computer fight of 1969?I have it on tape and Ali towered over Marciano..Like I said,believe what you want,Maricano would lose hands down to Louis prime to prime..It was a even fight when Louis was a TOTAL SHELL but he ran out of gas in the middle rounds.Archie Moore was a great Light heavyweight not a great heavyweight...He took everthing Marciano had until the mid-rounds and even knocked down(and hurt)Marciano...A light HW and old man took Marciano's best punches and hurt hurt him...makes me really ???? his chin..

                  I have respect for Marciano in some aspects..He took care of his money and didn't try a ill-fated comeback like most boxers do.He presented a strong image for the youth...But I don't think (and my mind's made up)he was a good much less great fighter...if your looking for quotes I could probably find some where Marciano says he could never have beat Louis prime to prime...I know Jeffries said he could never have beat Johnson, and Johnson said Jeffries was the greatest Heavyweight in history(including himself)when he was in his prime...EX punch drunk fighters making quotes mean nothing to me and prove nothing.I seen every big and most fights Marciano ever had and I"M NOT IMPRESSED !!!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                    You have the fights on tape? Then watch them.

                    Yeah, the Cooper fight. Ali was on queer street, and Dundee ADMITS he sliced the glove to grab some time. He then told Ali to use the cut in the glove to slice Cooper's face. Cooper wasn't the greatest fighter by any means, he just revealed Ali to be much less than he was portrayed, as did lousy ol' Karl Mildenburger, whose left hand baffled Ali. He couldn't handle left hooks, or left handed fighters very well.

                    Marciano was the best of his time. Too small to fight Liston, but more than enough strength and skills to easily handle Patterson (who was among the worst of all time). He's underrated simply because he's white. Take a look at Louis' record - almost all fights against mediocre and/or small opponents. The "legacy" of almost every heavyweight champ has been exaggerated. Louis was susceptable to overhand rights. That's how an old Louis got whacked by Marciano, and how a young Louis was KO'd by an old Schmelling in their first fight. Since you are a guru, you should also be aware of the fact that Marciano was fighting blind for much of his first bout with Walcott, and people suspect Walcott's handlers were rubbing linement into his gloves. Marciano wanted the fight halted because his eyes were stinging like mad, and he couldn't see. Archie Moore was a bit old, but a bit weak. He said his mistake was trying to stand toe to toe, as he didn't think anyone tweny pounds either side of Marciano could stand and trade punches toe to toe with him. He said that a "runner" would be the guy to beat him, stick and move, etc. He's probably right. The way boxing rules were enforced was changed somewhat with the arrival of Ali, as in earlier years, he would have been penalized for running away from opponents in a manner that he made the norm. If you've ever boxed, you know it's very, very hard to chase someone, you burn up a lot of energy, which is what Ali's opponents did. That said, he still lost the fights listed above, because those guys didn't get tired, and they did outpoint him. The worst decisions he ever got over fighters were the two wins against Ken Norton (Norton did get the decision in the first fight, when he broke Ali's jaw), Ali wasn't even close to winning either fight. He ran for his life in the second and third fight, probably thinking about the broken jaw. Watch them. His fight against Lyle was a joke, Lyle whipped Ali and was jobbed. Of course. Too many people making money off Ali, stealing it is a better term.

                    The most underrated fighters period are Latin fighters, who win most of their fights against Americans, but receive little publicity. Look at the records if you don't think that's true.

                    Marciano was good with his money, much like Sugar Ray Leonard was - but Leonard was in a different era earning incredible money at the time. He was smart to stick with Mike Trainer, and to let ABC TV turn him into a superstar with their crafted exposure. Most of Leonard's career moves were just right. Great career.

                    Greatest ever heavyweight? Certainly not Louis, nor Ali. Hell, Larry Holmes' record is better than both of them, even with some of the clowning he was involved in late in his boxing life. And he had a stronger jab than both of them.

                    Now as to track ... who are the greatest 100 meter men, and greatest milers ever to lace them up?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                      >You have the fights on tape? Then watch them.
                      >

                      Yeah, the Cooper fight. Ali was on queer
                      >street, and Dundee ADMITS he sliced the glove to
                      >grab some time. He then told Ali to use the cut
                      >in the glove to slice Cooper's face. Cooper
                      >wasn't the greatest fighter by any means, he
                      >just revealed Ali to be much less than he was
                      >portrayed, as did lousy ol' Karl Mildenburger,
                      >whose left hand baffled Ali. He couldn't handle
                      >left hooks, or left handed fighters very
                      >well.

                      Marciano was the best of his time. Too
                      >small to fight Liston, but more than enough
                      >strength and skills to easily handle Patterson
                      >(who was among the worst of all time). He's
                      >underrated simply because he's white. Take a
                      >look at Louis' record - almost all fights
                      >against mediocre and/or small opponents. The
                      >"legacy" of almost every heavyweight champ has
                      >been exaggerated. Louis was susceptable to
                      >overhand rights. That's how an old Louis got
                      >whacked by Marciano, and how a young Louis was
                      >KO'd by an old Schmelling in their first fight.
                      >Since you are a guru, you should also be aware
                      >e of the fact that Marciano was fighting blind
                      >for much of his first bout with Walcott, and
                      >people suspect Walcott's handlers were rubbing
                      >linement into his gloves. Marciano wanted the
                      >fight halted because his eyes were stinging like
                      >mad, and he couldn't see. Archie Moore was a bit
                      >old, but a bit weak. He said his mistake was
                      >trying to stand toe to toe, as he didn't think
                      >anyone tweny pounds either side of Marciano could
                      >stand and trade punches toe to toe with him. He
                      >said that a "runner" would be the guy to beat
                      >him, stick and move, etc. He's probably right.
                      >The way boxing rules were enforced was changed
                      >somewhat with the arrival of Ali, as in earlier
                      >years, he would have been penalized for running
                      >away from opponents in a manner that he made the
                      >norm. If you've ever boxed, you know it's very,
                      >very hard to chase someone, you burn up a lot of
                      >energy, which is what Ali's opponents did. That
                      >said, he still lost the fights listed above,
                      >because those guys didn't get tired, and they
                      >did outpoint him. The worst decisions he ever
                      >got over fighters were the two wins against Ken
                      >Norton (Norton did get the decision in the first
                      >fight, when he broke Ali's jaw), Ali wasn't even
                      >close to winning either fight. He ran for his
                      >life in the second and third fight, probably
                      >thinking about the broken jaw. Watch them. His
                      >fight against Lyle was a joke, Lyle whipped Ali
                      >and was jobbed. Of course. Too many people
                      >making money off Ali, stealing it is a better
                      >term.

                      The most underrated fighters period
                      >are Latin fighters, who win most of their fights
                      >against Americans, but receive little publicity.
                      >Look at the records if you don't think that's
                      >true.

                      Marciano was good with his money, much
                      >like Sugar Ray Leonard was - but Leonard was in
                      >a different era earning incredible money at the
                      >time. He was smart to stick with Mike Trainer,
                      >and to let ABC TV turn him into a superstar with
                      >their crafted exposure. Most of Leonard's
                      >career moves were just right. Great career.
                      >

                      Greatest ever heavyweight? Certainly not
                      >Louis, nor Ali. Hell, Larry Holmes' record is
                      >better than both of them, even with some of the
                      >clowning he was involved in late in his boxing
                      >life. And he had a stronger jab than both of
                      >them.

                      Now as to track ... who are the
                      >greatest 100 meter men, and greatest milers ever
                      >to lace them up?
                      \


                      Go back to your cave.....Listen caveman,Ali was simply the greatest...He beat two supposely two unbeatables, Liston and Foreman..Ali never really hurt Liston but Liston sure as heck didn't hurt Ali, even when his blinding salve got into ALI'S
                      eyes and Liston still didn't get many good shots on Ali and the ones he did had no effect...That's when Liston gave up, he couldn't even beat Ali when he couldn't see...I'II admit the second fight was fixed but I think liston knew what the outcome was going to be so he laid down..Cooper got in one good punch in two fights and his face was a bloodied mess.Dundee did cut Clay's glove and Clay was hurt but its very doubtful if Cooper would have KOed Clay.I have looked at that fight several times and he looked alert after the minute was up...If you saying Cooper was superior to Clay because of one lucky punch in two fights,go back to your cave.
                      Lefthanded fighters made Ali look bad but he beat them all just didn't look flashy doing it.I think ali won the second Norton fight the third I haven't watched that closely.Ali clowned alot late in his career and won some close boring fights.Lyle and Young had to take the champ's title and they didn't do that..Hell he was a shell that was in the Holmes fight for the money with no energy or offensive and Holmes never really hurt him or could put him down.Holmes had alot of close fights(Snipes,Weaver are two) where he looked like crap..He lost twice too a beefed up lightweight...Didn't Marciano have a split decision against Charles..Marcaino was tough for a 5 ft 10 in 185 lb guy with a 68 in reach..But when your willing to take three to land one it wouldn't be a pretty site against Liston,Foreman,Lyle,Shavers and Tyson.He couldn't catch the Ali's and Holmes's.He beat eveyone in an very weak era..I'II agree Patterson was even weaker than Marcaino...I have some of JJ Jeffries fights on tape and he was one tough guy..6 ft.1 in 220lbs, iron chin and the stamina to go 50 rds.

                      AS far the greatest 100 meter sprinter I would pick Hayes or greene...Jayes more potential Greene more accomplishments.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                        Back to the cave after you crawl back under your rock!

                        Again, watch the fights.

                        Cooper lucky? Ali could never see good left hooks coming. Problems with left hands and lefties his whole career.

                        Sounds like you're about ready to admit Ali was thumped by Norton and Lyle. You're coming along. Ali is one of the biggest media creations/frauds in boxing history. Scatch that. He is the biggest, bar none. Beat Liston? Watch the fights. Liston should have gone to The Actor's Studio beforehand, maybe he could have done a better job taking a dive.

                        Marciano, tough small man. Not big enough to handle the giants that came along later, but big enough to handle puffed up "legends" like Louis. (I've honestly felt a lot of sports were a bit weak for 10 - 15 years after WWII for obvious reasons) Ali would have run and run and run, getting a decision against the Rock.

                        At least we agree on Patterson. Man, who was pushing him? Never mind, we know.

                        In the 100 - would be great to see Greene, Hayes, Johnson square off in their primes - although Hayes might need to be souped up with "ergogenic" aids like the men that followed him in order to be on level ground. If all three were clean, well, considering the work Hayes put in compared to later runners, Hayes hands down. As it stands now, with nothing being equal, Greene and Johnson. Johnson's problem was he got caught, he probably didn't do anything more than anyone else.

                        Greatest athlete of the century? Man, I don't think it's Jordan.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                          When I say Ali was the greatest I mean the Ali on 1964-1967 and 1971-1975....not the Ali of 1975-1978...I think Ali under estimated, unknown Norton in the first fight,the second fight Ali won...the third fight was when Ali was a media promotion and I lost interest...The Lyle,Shavers,Norton 3, were fights I didn't care about...Ali lost most of his skills by then...I bet on Holmes in 1980, when I was 18 yrs old...As far as the Cooper fight,they fought 2 times, Cooper got in a few punches(good)in two fights..don't see where you coming from...His face looked like a haloween mask...Are you saying the fights shouldnt have been stopped ???? Do you think LISTON won the first fight with his swollen head?????Granted, Ali didn't hurt Liston(he has a iron jaw)but Liston didn't hurt him either..Liston was losing every round and looked slow and clumsy against Ali..I think that hurt Liston historically..When you quit on a stool and take a dive, you never recover..if it wasn't for the Ali fights I think Liston would be remembered as one of the greatest..He underestimated Clay in the first fight and didn't train for 15 rds and took a dive in the second..A young in shape Liston would have been a interesting fight for Ali and was a prue fighting machine in my opinion...The only time I ever saw him hurt was against Leotis Martin and was hit with a wicked combanation that KOd him for minutes..That combo would have KOd probably anybody..

                          I would go with Hayes..Greene a pro that trains yr round..Hayes never ran at altitute or a syntheic track..Trained around his football schedule and still has the record for the fastest 4x1 leg.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                            Ali was the fastest heavyweight ever. Bar none. But that's it. As far as the Cooper fight - I'm referring to the first one. Cooper wasn't cut until after Ali used the glove sliced by Dundee. Ali was out on his feet, barely made it back to his corner. Watch the fight, read Dundee's remarks about it. Next time, Ali ran and threw every punch at the scar tissue. But, that's enough on Ali. This board is for track. Then again, we could argue about middleweights ... nah. That would go on forever.

                            Hayes had otherwordly talent. He's one of those guys from the 60's, along with Snell and Ryun who could compete with today's stars. That can't be said about most other stars from the past.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                              I'm not sure Wilt Chamberlain couldn't have knocked them both out -- at the same time!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Greatest Athletes of the Century....your thoughts??

                                >I'm not sure Wilt Chamberlain couldn't have
                                >knocked them both out -- at the same time!

                                Yeah, but could he kick with Snell or Ryun?

                                Comment

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