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  • #91
    Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

    Originally posted by Pego
    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    So 12 people answered "no" to the question in my original post. Out of curiosity, I would appreciate it if the no's stated their definitions of terrorism in concise and unambiguous language. Pego kinda sorta gave a definition but it has some wiggle room in it. Here's my definition so you get an idea of what I'm looking for:
    • Terrorism - violence against innocent civilians for the purpose of intimidating, coercing or breaking the will of a government; or for the purpose of disrupting or influencing a democratic process in order to promote or oppose a political agenda.
    This is too narrow. For example, the white supremacist asshole that shot up the Sikh temple in Milwaukee just because he hated people wearing turbans was a terrorist in my book.
    He's a terrorist in my book too, similar to the KKK, a group that also carried out racial, ethnic and religious motivated murders. The fact that he may have been ignorant about the religious affiliation of Sikhs is besides the point. The main point is that, like the KKK, he was opposed to racial, ethnic and religious tolerance in our society. That falls under the category of "promote or oppose a political agenda". Keep in mind that not only do hate groups hate minorities, they also hate the laws that protect them. Also, didn't that attack happen as a reaction to another terrorist attack that had recently taken place?

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    • #92
      Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

      Terrorism will continue to exist as long as Israel continues to oppress Palestinians.

      I once worked as a press officer for a theatre that staged off-beat productions. I worked with a writer who produced a play about a British Muslim who becomes a terrorist. The writer himself was once a member of a banned organisation, and he told me that the Israel-Palestine conflict was the biggest recruiting tool for terrorism.

      So forget this nonsense about schools in Birmingham, teaching British values in schools, etc. Until Western governments force Israel to give Palestine unconditional freedom to form their own state, then, in the words of the late great Bob Marley, everywhere is war!
      My heart is still in the Caribbean....

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      • #93
        Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

        Do I believe in terrorism? Hell fucking yeah.

        W. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, etc. are goddamn terrorists.

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        • #94
          Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

          Since I originally started this thread, I've found that there are three types of people:
          • 1) True pacifists (eg. Amish)
            2) People like myself who believe that terrorism, like war, is sometimes a necessary evil
            3) People who say that terrorism is never morally justified but are unable to come up with a coherent definition of it

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          • #95
            Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

            Originally posted by jazzcyclist
            • 3) People who say that terrorism is never morally justified but are unable to come up with a coherent definition of it
            Well, the Ambrose Bierce definition would be "threatening &/or committing violent political action with which I disagree."

            More seriously, there is a continuum of intimidation. Some actions everyone can agree are terrorist; others are disputed. For instance, military action by duly constituted governments is often considered an exception, even when frightening civilians is part of the point (London Blitz, Baghdad shock & awe, etc). Definitions are always going to be blurry. To use a track metaphor, it's a bit like defining a GOAT — you can't just point to times, or medals (or corpses or explosions), there is something intangible ...

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            • #96
              Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

              Originally posted by expat
              military action by duly constituted governments is often considered an exception
              But to a jihadist, this is God's Will, which certainly seems to trump any government. I can't wrap my head around our use of the atomic bomb in Japan (which I agree (in retrospect) with; and the Twin Towers (which was unconscionable). Both were the acts oby a group of people intent on 'sending a message', and these people were completely morally (to themselves) invested in their actions. I am NOT conflating the two acts as equal, but to the 'committers' of these acts, they were. I have no answer to the question . . .

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              • #97
                Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

                One difference between Westerners and Middle Easterners is how we view he concept of nation-states. To Westerners, respect for your national government generally trumps any loyalty you may have for your tribe (eg. race, religion, political party, etc.). This is why JFK was able to nationalize the Alabama National Guard on June 11, 1963, and have them carry out orders at the University of Alabama that most of them probably vehemently disagreed with. It's also why the handover of power from W to Obama was so peaceful, despite the fact that the racial fault line in this country is every bit as strong as the religious fault lines in the Mideast. However, in the Mideast, your loyalty to your tribe trumps your loyalty to your national government, which is why those governments are so unstable. If a Mideast leader issued an order similar to the one JFK issued, there would be massive defections.

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                • #98
                  Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

                  Does Shivfan really believe that the terrorism in Nigeria or East Africa between Moslems and Christians; or that the US's stationing troops in Saudi Arabis which provided the impetus for the rise of Al Quaeda; or the Sunni - Shiite conflict which had been going on for what 1,300 years; or between India and Pakistan; etceterawill all go away if the Israeli - Palestinean conflict is somehow resolved? Don't scapegoat that conflict for all the other "groups" that resort to terrorism.

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                  • #99
                    Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

                    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                    To Westerners, respect for your national government generally trumps any loyalty you may have for your tribe (eg. race, religion, political party, etc.).
                    Try telling that to the people over in Ukraine right now or for that matter many of us in the USA these days. The question always will be whether the national government represents the will of the people or are they working at the behest of powerful interests?

                    I don't know how things are going in your neck of the world but we are seeing a growing distrust of the federal government. We have US states who speak of secession and this business with not enforcing immigration policy, not protecting our borders, is bringing things to a head. And all of this goes beyond the realm of political parties, as we have seen this dynamic going on since before our current administration (something the FoxNews zealots conveniently choose to ignore).

                    Comment


                    • Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

                      Originally posted by Bob Duncan
                      Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                      To Westerners, respect for your national government generally trumps any loyalty you may have for your tribe (eg. race, religion, political party, etc.).
                      Try telling that to the people over in Ukraine right now or for that matter many of us in the USA these days. The question always will be whether the national government represents the will of the people or are they working at the behest of powerful interests?
                      When I use the word "West" and its derivatives, I'm talking about nations further west than Ukraine.

                      Originally posted by Bob Duncan
                      I don't know how things are going in your neck of the world but we are seeing a growing distrust of the federal government. We have US states who speak of secession and this business with not enforcing immigration policy, not protecting our borders, is bringing things to a head. And all of this goes beyond the realm of political parties, as we have seen this dynamic going on since before our current administration (something the FoxNews zealots conveniently choose to ignore).
                      But it's been 150 years since any faction in this country has tried to address these differences violently, unless you count the defiance of the Dixiecrat politicians during the Civil Rights Movement, and even then, these politicians ordered the sheriffs and state troopers to stand down whenever the President sent in the F.B.I., the U.S. Marshalls and/or the Army. These Tea Partiers do a lot of rabble-rousing, but so far they've used the democratic process (eg. voting, protests, letters to their Congressman and Senators, etc.) to address their grievances, not violent means.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Do you believe in terrorism?

                        Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                        But it's been 150 years since any faction in this country has tried to address these differences violently, unless you count the defiance of the Dixiecrat politicians during the Civil Rights Movement, and even then, these politicians ordered the sheriffs and state troopers to stand down whenever the President sent in the F.B.I., the U.S. Marshalls and/or the Army. These Tea Partiers do a lot of rabble-rousing, but so far they've used the democratic process (eg. voting, protests, letters to their Congressman and Senators, etc.) to address their grievances, not violent means.
                        But you've got a lot of people out there who are obsessed with the thought that the federal government is going to confiscate their firearms. My guess is that if we were to descend into domestic terrorism (again), the tipping point will be over firearms, as this was front and center in the Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Oklahoma City events.

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