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TD, you nailed it. Most Black folks revere both Jim Brown and Muhammad Ali. Furthermore, Jim Brown was a big admirer and supporter of Ali and he was in Ali's corner when he beat Liston the first time. Whitlock needs to check this out:
Whitlock likes to challenge people to think and he likes to present himself as being objective. Normally he does okay.
If I had a nickle for every time a white guy has steered me toward a Whitlock article... :lol:
Or black guys who've tried to get me to see the positives in Jesse Jackson. :roll: At one time Jesse and Al were quite productive.
But now?
Joker was crying crocodile tears when Obama got elected. Just a few months earlier he called him a niqqer.
Jesse needs to fold up the rainbow coalition tent and head for the house. He can take that self hate hairdo wearing Sharpton with him. Who's ever heard of a preacher/politicians who've never held office and have no church?
1) throw a woman off a motel balcony
2) beat up someone's car with a radio antenna ?
Peter denied Christ 3 times.
MLK allegedly committed adultery.
So did Kennedy.
Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves.
What's your point?
My point is obvious... Brown has the tendency to behave like an idiot when things do not go the way he wants. Or do you think the misdeeds you cite above exonerate Brown from his ?!
1) throw a woman off a motel balcony
2) beat up someone's car with a radio antenna ?
Peter denied Christ 3 times.
MLK allegedly committed adultery.
So did Kennedy.
Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves.
What's your point?
My point is obvious... Brown has the tendency to behave like an idiot when things do not go the way he wants. Or do you think the misdeeds you cite above exonerate Brown from his ?!
I don't think anyone here excuses Brown's history with women, at least I don't. I think the point TD was making is that you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Jason Whitlock (agrees with paulthefan on Ali) had it right: "Jim Brown is the most important athlete in American history. Everything we foolishly credit Muhammad Ali for standing for Jim Brown actually did and does. The reverence we shower on the self-serving, draft-dodging, Joe Frazier-is-a-monkey Muhammad Ali more appropriately belongs at Jim Brown's feet."
Jim Brown is a great man, his Amer-I-can program is a stroke of genius wrapped in moral clarity. He did more for man than more than a few civil rights con artists ever did. Nevertheless some of the misanthropy that comes from his mouth is surprising, he can almost sound like a spoiled brat with a jealous streak. I dont like his hat either.
Jason Whitlock has the NERVE to call Ali a draft dodger?
answer: yes.
Originally posted by TrackDaddy
Ali couldnt even purchase a home where he wanted to in the city he grew up in.
sad, but not sad enough to slander your country and aid the enemy. Especially when so many young men were already over there.
Originally posted by TrackDaddy
And he was the heavyweight champion of the world. And the US wanted him to fight like he was free?
answer: yes. (nevertheless he paid the appropriate price for his protest and that was right.)
Originally posted by TrackDaddy
Whitlock makes white folk happy with that nonsense.
not sure what part of the Whitlock quote you disagree with, you have read into it something about race and black vs white that no one will understand but you so far.
Originally posted by TrackDaddy
Ali stood up for a cause at a time when people were being assasinated. He wouldve been SAFER in Vietnam.
hmm, interesting, in fact Ali did join and promote an organization that really did assassinate its members. He would have been safer in Vietnam than in the US speaking a word against that organization's leadership.
Originally posted by TrackDaddy
Whitlock is a lunatic if he thinks we have to choose between the two. I just look like this. In reality, that's what he wants white people to do so he can sell papers. Some white people like it when prominent minorities are brought down...and vice versa.
Whitlock didnt say anything close to that, perhaps your race-centric world view is distorting what he is writing.
Originally posted by TrackDaddy
Star Jones rose to fame when she, being black, stood on national TV and claimed that OJ was guilty...long before his trial. Did you know that's how she got famous?
you mean they wanted to put someone on television that actually could see what any unbiased person could see?.. I dont know know who she is by name or face but goodwill to her.
... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.
Essentially Whitlock attempts to promote Brown by discrediting Ali.
It cannot be down.
Its "ONLY" :? unfortunate to you that Ali and other blacks were second class citizens under the US flag?
Their response to these conditions should be what you feel equitable when you didnt suffer that status? You think they should've valiently fought in Vietnam to be called niqqer and denied equal rights when they got home?
Do you know what it must've been like to live under Jim Crow laws?
Do you know that in some cities it was illegal for a black person to look a white person in the eyes? (the LAW was called eyeballing).
Do you know that in some cities black men werent allowed to wear a suit during the week unless they were a teacher or a preacher?
Do you know that black people in soe cities werent paid equal pay for equal work?
Do you know that black peoplehad to enter public establishments through the rear?
Do you know that in some cities black people couldnt own a new car?
Did you know that blacks werent allowed to get new school books...just hand me downs?
Essentially Whitlock attempts to promote Brown by discrediting Ali.
I think what he wants to do is promote Brown AND discredit Ali whom he sees as having way too much credit. Most of us that have read some of the factual history of Ali are glad that the myth is being revisited and the truth of the toll he took on sport and sportsmanship is being appraised. Frazier's book is worth reading. Ali was a shameless self promotor whose self interests led him to visciously slander his adversaries and create fictions about his own history. Joe Frazier knew more about Jim Crow than Muhammad Ali ever did. Read the book.
... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.
Essentially Whitlock attempts to promote Brown by discrediting Ali.
I think what he wants to do is promote Brown AND discredit Ali, most of us that have read some of the factual history of Ali are glad that the myth is being revisited and the truth of the toll he took on sport and sportsmanship is being appraised. Frazier's book is worth reading. Ali was a shameless self promotor whose self interests led him to visciously slander his adversaries and create fictions about his own history. Joe Frazier knew more about Jim Crow than Muhammad Ali ever did. Read the book.
But like I said...to even pit Ali against Brown is foolish. Their accomplishments stand on their own.
Ali was a self promoter, yes. And it worked like a charm.
But he also lost his champioship and spent time in prison for standing up for a cause.
A lot of people felt that Frazier was an Uncle Tom and that his unwillingness, for example, to acknowledge Ali by his new name was disrespectful. But calling Frazier an ape was the wrong thing to do.
I've honestly felt sorry for Frazier and the way that all played out.
But when people with 1st class status call Ali a draft dodger they are misinformed. He could have went into the military and got a cushy job.He was the champ.
Instead, he made a statement that helped to change the course of history and black peoples status.
Ali wasnt a coward. He said stuff ON TV that many black folk wouldve been afraid to say in private. His life was always in danger. It wasnt until 1993 that a Klansman was ever convicted of killing a black person...some 100 years after the reign of terror began. They were always acquitted by white juries. Jokers were being assassinated, lynched, crosses being burned, etc. during the civil rights movement.
If your issue is with the Nation of Islam...then say that.
But Ali was fearless in a very trying time.
I suppose you take exception with Tommie Smith and John Carlos too? :?
But like I said...to even pit Ali against Brown is foolish. Their accomplishments stand on their own.
only you could read Whitlock and see Ali pitted against Brown, again try reading it slow.
Instead, he made a statement that helped to change the course of history and black peoples status.
not really, the heavy lifting was done by people of great stature and mostly long before Ali was Ali.
But Ali was fearless in a very trying time.
Ali was actually shameless in a very easy time.
I suppose you take exception with Tommie Smith and John Carlos too? :?
they raised their fists after all the heavy lifting was done and thereby unknowingly gave themselves credit for the real risks that great men took before them. Men that really did face brutal injustice with great character and greater courage. Not the college campus rentajustice kind. They thought they were doing the right thing. Tommie Smith is a great man.
... nothing really ever changes my friend, new lines for old, new lines for old.
This reminds me of the Book T. Washington/W.E.B. DuBois debates in the early 20th Century about which path (vocational education & economics versus conventional education & political involvement/empowerment) was more effective.
Washington Post reporter, Michael Wilborn, offers some insight into Tiger Wood's social activsim.
Whitlock did compare Ali to Brown when it's totally unnecessary in order to give Brown his due. If Whitlock wants to slam Ali, he would be wiser to do it without bringing Brown into the conversation. I'll bet that if Brown reads his column, he'll dislike it as much as TD and I do. And anyone who agrees with paulthefan that Ali slandered his country and aided the enemy must really despise Martin Luther King and his Vietnam speeches.
And Jim Brown has a right to his opinion, but obviously Mike and Tiger dont share it.
Fact is, if they did share his opinion, they wouldnt be nearly as rich and successful outside of the playing field as they are.
Jason Whitlock (agrees with paulthefan on Ali) had it right: "Jim Brown is the most important athlete in American history. Everything we foolishly credit Muhammad Ali for standing for Jim Brown actually did and does. The reverence we shower on the self-serving, draft-dodging, Joe Frazier-is-a-monkey Muhammad Ali more appropriately belongs at Jim Brown's feet."
Jim Brown is a great man, his Amer-I-can program is a stroke of genius wrapped in moral clarity. He did more for man than more than a few civil rights con artists ever did. Nevertheless some of the misanthropy that comes from his mouth is surprising, he can almost sound like a spoiled brat with a jealous streak. I dont like his hat either.
Always thought Jason Whitlock was a really smart guy on The Sports Reporters before he got canned because he couldn't get along with Mike Lupica, for which I like him even more.
Probably right about Brown. My take on Jim Brown is this - aside from the topic of this thread, I consider him the greatest American athlete of all time. Any sport, any time, any era. Even above Jim Thorpe - take that, Texas.
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