Should we continue to aid Israel?

[bman]

I think that the conflict in Israel Palestine could be solved soon if we were to make our aid to Israel conditional upon them retreating to the 1967 borders. Everyone in the world thinks those borders are the solution accept us. If the settlers want to stay, they will be a part of a Palestinian state.

How is this not clear cut?

Maybe this will get things going .

[shivfan]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

I totally agree!

There will be no peace until the West Bank is made into an unconditional, independent Palestinian state....

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

How is this not clear cut?

It is clear cut, but the politicians on Capitol Hill are too craven and the Israel lobby is too powerful. Did you catch the news report from several months ago of the Sheldon Adelson Primary, in which all the top Republican presidential prospects flew out Las Vegas to audition for the Presidency before Adelson and other like-minded billionaires? Obama has been shameful in his blind support for Netanyahu's Likud/settler government which has absolutely no interest in peace with any of its neighbors. Here's a video explaining what happened the last time an American President tried to hit Israel in its pocketbook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ov0QKfpkPQ

[TN1965]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

I think that the conflict in Israel Palestine could be solved soon if we were to make our aid to Israel conditional upon them retreating to the 1967 borders. Everyone in the world thinks those borders are the solution accept us. If the settlers want to stay, they will be a part of a Palestinian state.

How is this not clear cut?

Maybe this will get things going .

I am afraid there will be enough hardliners in Israel who would rather give up the US aid than retreating.

[PDJ551]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

I have never agreed with the settlements on the Western Bank. However, if no settlements had ever been established there still would be no peace in the area. if aid to Israel is dropped (which is really corporate welfare for U.S. companies) than all aid to the area should be ended. Most of the Israelis agree with the two-state solution, but the Palestinians have never really backed it. The only way that they would be happy is that if all the Israelis vanished. They want the whole enchilada and will not accept less. They teach their children in school that the Israelis are not human. That they are European colonizers (despite the fact that even Ashkenazi Jews (Eastern European) are very similar DNA wise with themselves. In 1947 they would not accept the two-state solution. In 1967 they clamored for war, mobilized their troops, and talked of how they would wipe Israel off the map. Instead they were beaten up pretty bad. IN 1972 they attacked on Yom Kippur and were again beaten back. The Israelis gave up Gaza (a good decision in my opinion) and have lobbed missiles at them since. Cut off aid to Israel, but don't make the Palestinians out as saints.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

I am afraid there will be enough hardliners in Israel who would rather give up the US aid than retreating.

That's fine, but without U.S. backing, Israel would be unable to keep the Palestinians under its boot.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

PDJ551, I don't know if you actually believe the propaganda you posted, but it sounds like it's something Benjamin Netanyahu himself might have written, and every world leader who has dealt with him knows that he's a pathological liar who won't be satisfied until his dream of Greater Israel is realized, with not a single Gentile left between the Jordan River and the Sea.

[TN1965]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

I am afraid there will be enough hardliners in Israel who would rather give up the US aid than retreating.

That's fine, but without U.S. backing, Israel would be unable to keep the Palestinians under its boot.

I don't think the things are this simple. You are overestimating the US influence.

[TN1965]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

The Israelis gave up Gaza (a good decision in my opinion) and have lobbed missiles at them since. Cut off aid to Israel, but don't make the Palestinians out as saints.

IMHO, they made a critical error when they "unilaterally" withdrew from Gaza. They should have given credit to Fatah, even if that had nothing to do with their decision to withdraw. That way, they could have influenced Palestinians to think that this "negotiated peace" thing could work. (Kind of "placebo" effect to make them believe in it.) Instead, Fatah was discredited and Hamas became more popular among Palestinians.

BTW, getting back to the topic of this thread, I think a better approach is to boost the moderate Jewish lobby groups to counter the influence of AIPAC.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

I am afraid there will be enough hardliners in Israel who would rather give up the US aid than retreating.

That's fine, but without U.S. backing, Israel would be unable to keep the Palestinians under its boot.

I don't think the things are this simple. You are overestimating the US influence.

I don't think so. The only reason why Israel hasn't had South Africa-style sanctions imposed on it is because of the U.S. veto at the U.N. Security Council. Do you realize how many times the U.S. has been on the short end of 14-1 votes at the U.N. to protect Israel? When Bush 41 cut off loan guarantees, it caused Yitzhak Shamir's government to collapsed, and as a result, Yitzhak Rabin, the only peace Prime Minister in Israel's history, was elected and we know what happened to him.

Even if a politician from Labor or Meretz wanted to pick up where Rabin left off, it would be nearly impossible for him/her to get elected, because Sheldon Adelson meddles in Israeli politics even more than he meddles in American politics, and he's hell-bent on stopping another Rabin from becoming Prime Minister. Furthermore, AIPAC, which is really an arm of Likud, and who Rabin despised and referred to as scumbags, feels the same way as Adelson, which is why they refuse to even meet with J-Street, and blackballs any politicians who do.

[Bob Duncan]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

BTW, getting back to the topic of this thread, I think a better approach is to boost the moderate Jewish lobby groups to counter the influence of AIPAC.

Amen brother.

It's like the tragic killing of those three Israeli boys this week. As bad as that was, how many American teens were murdered in our own cities? We have an epidemic of urban violence in this country which won't stop.

Our own cities are in ruins and some people only care about the Middle East.

[TN1965]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

The only reason why Israel hasn't had South Africa-style sanctions imposed on it is because of the U.S. veto at the U.N. Security Council. Do you realize how many times the U.S. has been on the short end of 14-1 votes at the U.N. to protect Israel? When Bush 41 cut off loan guarantees, it caused Yitzhak Shamir's government to collapsed, and as a result, Yitzhak Rabin, the only peace Prime Minister in Israel's history, was elected and we know what happened to him.

"Stopping the aid to Israel" and "placing Israel under a South Africa-style sanction"" are two totally different things. None of the Security Council Resolutions you mentioned advocated that kind of sanctions. Maybe you want to believe in the influence of all mighty United States, but the world is not such a simple place.

What happened to Rabin actually shows the limits of US influence. Or for that matter what happened after his assassination as well.

[PDJ551]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

If one wants to draw parallels between Israel and South Africa they have to state more clearly how the two countries treated each population. Analogies have to be carefully drawn to have any validity.

[tandfman]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

PDJ551, I don't know if you actually believe the propaganda you posted, but it sounds like it's something Benjamin Netanyahu himself might have written, and every world leader who has dealt with him knows that he's a pathological liar who won't be satisfied until his dream of Greater Israel is realized, with not a single Gentile left between the Jordan River and the Sea.

Nonsense! He is certainly a hawk, but he's not delusional.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

The Israelis gave up Gaza (a good decision in my opinion) and have lobbed missiles at them since. Cut off aid to Israel, but don't make the Palestinians out as saints.

IMHO, they made a critical error when they "unilaterally" withdrew from Gaza. They should have given credit to Fatah, even if that had nothing to do with their decision to withdraw. That way, they could have influenced Palestinians to think that this "negotiated peace" thing could work. (Kind of "placebo" effect to make them believe in it.) Instead, Fatah was discredited and Hamas became more popular among Palestinians.

You might have a point, but I would also add that in addition to negotiating the withdrawal from Gaza with Fatah, they shouldn't have imposed a blockade on Gaza after the Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006, because at that time, Hamas had been observing a 16-month ceasefire ahead of the election. All Israel had to do is tell Hamas that as long as things are quiet on our southern border, there will be no blockade, and Hamas would have had a strong incentive to keep things quiet, but it was ridiculous for Israel to impose a permanent blockade on Gaza for the way the Palestinian people voted in a free and fair election, not expect a reaction.

BTW, getting back to the topic of this thread, I think a better approach is to boost the moderate Jewish lobby groups to counter the influence of AIPAC.

Perhaps you had J-Street in mind, but yesterday in Haaretz, Peter Beinart wrote an article about the inherent weakness of J-Street compared to AIPAC.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.601480