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  • #16
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    to give a short answer to the actual question posed as the thread starter: so long as the region is full of (and getting fuller) of anti-American (indeed, anti-Western) sentiment, the U.S. has no choice from either an economic or military point of view but to continue.

    Those two simple facts of life outweigh all the arguing about moral right & wrong, historical misdeeds, etc., etc.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

      Originally posted by TN1965
      "Stopping the aid to Israel" and "placing Israel under a South Africa-style sanction"" are two totally different things. None of the Security Council Resolutions you mentioned advocated that kind of sanctions. Maybe you want to believe in the influence of all mighty United States, but the world is not such a simple place.
      You're missing the point. There steps that have to be take at the U.N. in order to ratchet up sanctions and the U.S. stops the process before it can get that far. U.N. sanctions are key, because they cover everybody, not just individual nations. The reason why Obama went to the U.N. for Iranian sanctions is because he knew that without them, it would be impossible to put real pressure on them, since Iran had plenty of willing business partners besides the U.S. Why do you believe the South African apartheid government collapsed if not because of sanctions?

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

        Originally posted by gh
        to give a short answer to the actual question posed as the thread starter: so long as the region is full of (and getting fuller) of anti-American (indeed, anti-Western) sentiment, the U.S. has no choice from either an economic or military point of view but to continue.

        Those two simple facts of life outweigh all the arguing about moral right & wrong, historical misdeeds, etc., etc.
        This sounds like circular logic because it is the blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment in the first place.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

          Originally posted by tandfman
          He is certainly a hawk, but he's not delusional.
          I'm beginning to wonder about that. Bibi seems to have no vision, no pragmatism, and his only concern seems to be keeping his settler government from collapsing.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

            Originally posted by jazzcyclist
            Originally posted by TN1965
            "Stopping the aid to Israel" and "placing Israel under a South Africa-style sanction"" are two totally different things. None of the Security Council Resolutions you mentioned advocated that kind of sanctions. Maybe you want to believe in the influence of all mighty United States, but the world is not such a simple place.
            You're missing the point. There steps that have to be take at the U.N. in order to ratchet up sanctions and the U.S. stops the process before it can get that far. U.N. sanctions are key, because they cover everybody, not just individual nations. The reason why Obama went to the U.N. for Iranian sanctions is because he knew that without them, it would be impossible to put real pressure on them, since Iran had plenty of willing business partners besides the U.S. Why do you believe the South African apartheid government collapsed if not because of sanctions?
            You are missing my point. There will be countries other than the US that will oppose the sanctions on Israel, if it goes to the level of the ones on South Africa. Unless Israel escalates its level of aggression, that is.

            And getting back to the point on Rabin, his assassination had nothing to do with the US. In fact, Clinton administration was supporting his policies. And the outcome of Israeli election after that also had little (if any) to do with the US policy. (I bet Clinton would have liked to see Peres win that election.)

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

              Originally posted by PDJ551
              If one wants to draw parallels between Israel and South Africa they have to state more clearly how the two countries treated each population. Analogies have to be carefully drawn to have any validity.
              Actually, Desmond Tutu concluded that Palestinians were treated worse than Black South Africans after his visit to the region. Anyway, here's a partial summary:

              In the West Bank,
              • 1) there are vast networks of humiliating checkpoints that the Palestinians must go through in order travel from one Palestinian town to the next, just like in Apartheid South Africa,

                2) there are curfews that only apply to Palestinians, just like in Apartheid South Africa,

                3) there is systematic confiscation of Palestinian property (and bulldozing of Palestinian homes) in order to accommodate Jewish settlers, just like in Apartheid South Africa,

                4) Palestinians are denied the right to vote, just like in Apartheid South Africa and Jim Crow America,

                5) there are Jewish-only settlements, roads and other public facilities that are forbidden to Palestinians, just like in Apartheid South Africa and Jim Crow America.


              In the West Bank and in Israel proper,
              • 1) there are discriminatory marriage laws, just like in Jim Crow America,

                2) there are discriminatory practices within the criminal justice system, just like in Apartheid South Africa and Jim Crow America.


              In the West Bank and in Gaza,
              • the Israeli government completely controls the contact of the Palestinians with the outside world, including travel and food and medical supplies they're allowed to receive, just like in Apartheid South Africa and the Warsaw Ghetto.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                Originally posted by TN1965
                Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                You're missing the point. There steps that have to be take at the U.N. in order to ratchet up sanctions and the U.S. stops the process before it can get that far. U.N. sanctions are key, because they cover everybody, not just individual nations. The reason why Obama went to the U.N. for Iranian sanctions is because he knew that without them, it would be impossible to put real pressure on them, since Iran had plenty of willing business partners besides the U.S. Why do you believe the South African apartheid government collapsed if not because of sanctions?
                You are missing my point. There will be countries other than the US that will oppose the sanctions on Israel, if it goes to the level of the ones on South Africa. Unless Israel escalates its level of aggression, that is.
                Huh? :? Which nations are you talking about? I hope not the Marshall Islands and Micronesia because they don't have a veto? Do you not remember how the Obama administration was condemned by world leaders fro m EVERYWHERE when it vetoed action on the settlements a couple of years ago? It wasn't a 13-2 vote or a 12-3 vote, it was a 14-1 vote.

                Originally posted by TN1965
                And getting back to the point on Rabin, his assassination had nothing to do with the US. In fact, Clinton administration was supporting his policies. And the outcome of Israeli election after that also had little (if any) to do with the US policy. (I bet Clinton would have liked to see Peres win that election.)
                I think we're in agreement with regards to Rabin. I never meant to imply that the U.S. had anything to do with his assassination, but when he died, the peace died with him, because though Clinton did everything in his power to get Peres elected, he isn't the politician that Rabin was.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                  Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                  blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment
                  This ignores roughly 1500 years of conflict. From the expansion of the Caliphate to North Africa and southern Europe, through the Crusades, through the Turkish wars, all the way into the 20th and 21st century. Massacres from both sides, endless cycles of violence, tit-for-tat. How many Christian-Muslim wars are being presently conducted or occurred just recently? Bosnia, Chechnya...Even Buddhist-Muslim (Sri Lanka, Myanmar), Hindu-Muslim in the subcontinent.
                  I am not going to minimize the impact of Israel-Palestine prolonged conflict, but to say that it is a root cause is a misstatement.
                  "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                  by Thomas Henry Huxley

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                    Do you not remember how the Obama administration was condemned by world leaders fro m EVERYWHERE when it vetoed action on the settlements a couple of years ago? It wasn't a 13-2 vote or a 12-3 vote, it was a 14-1 vote.
                    And those 14 countries were not trying to impose "South Africa-style" sanctions.

                    Here is the draft of resolution.

                    http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc ... =S/2011/24

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                      Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                      Originally posted by gh
                      to give a short answer to the actual question posed as the thread starter: so long as the region is full of (and getting fuller) of anti-American (indeed, anti-Western) sentiment, the U.S. has no choice from either an economic or military point of view but to continue.

                      Those two simple facts of life outweigh all the arguing about moral right & wrong, historical misdeeds, etc., etc.
                      This sounds like circular logic because it is the blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment in the first place.
                      logic not circular at all; i said historical misdeeds were, relative to my posting, irrelevant. We're talking bout the future here, unless you think Israel's disappearance is the only thing that will stop the tide of Islamic fanaticism. I'm simply saying that at this point in time, for purely pragmatic reasons, the answer to the question as posed is clearly yes. With no debate required.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                        Originally posted by TN1965
                        Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                        Do you not remember how the Obama administration was condemned by world leaders fro m EVERYWHERE when it vetoed action on the settlements a couple of years ago? It wasn't a 13-2 vote or a 12-3 vote, it was a 14-1 vote.
                        And those 14 countries were not trying to impose "South Africa-style" sanctions.

                        Here is the draft of resolution.

                        http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc ... =S/2011/24
                        As I was saying earlier, that was a first step on the path to sanctions, and AIPAC knew it. However, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which nation is more devoted to Israel than the U.S.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                          Originally posted by gh
                          logic not circular at all; i said historical misdeeds were, relative to my posting, irrelevant. We're talking bout the future here, unless you think Israel's disappearance is the only thing that will stop the tide of Islamic fanaticism. I'm simply saying that at this point in time, for purely pragmatic reasons, the answer to the question as posed is clearly yes. With no debate required.
                          I guess I see it differently. The cat must attempt to make peace with the mouse, the mouse can't afford to make peace with the cat. In 2002, Ayatollah Khamenei found out how dangerous it was for the mouse to make peace with the cat, because after 9/11, Iran went out of its way to support the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, doing everything that could be expected and then some, and in return, W included them in his "Axis of Evil" speech and since then we've been trying to sanction them into the stone age.

                          The U.S. is the world's most powerful nation, and if we want other folks to change their attitude about us, we have to treat them differently, and if we do that, we can expect their attitudes to change accordingly. I would also say the same for Israel, because if you look back at when Rabin was alive, Arab leaders recognized that he was a different kind of Israeli leader and they began to reciprocate to his peace overtures. For example, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel when Rabin alive without getting anything in return because King Hussein could see that Rabin was sincere based on his actions.

                          Also, IMO opinion, we get little to nothing in return for our support for Israel (no peace with the Palestinians, no military bases, no troops, etc.) and since Likud has been in power we less than nothing, we get backstabbed with false flags and other acts of treachery.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                            Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                            […..

                            The U.S. is the world's most powerful nation, and if we want other folks to change their attitude about us, we have to treat them differently, and if we do that, we can expect their attitudes to change accordingly…..
                            Not to appear too intolerant, but from where I stand, there's nothing short of a planet-wide caliphate that will quell the savage urges of the current bad guys. They can only be stopped by brute force. (no, i can't believe I'm taking such an extreme stance, but I see no other route that's remotely feasible at this point; these guys are using 21st-century technology to enable/arouse 10th-century peasants and making it sound to them as if it's god's will)

                            Funny, we have a concurrent thread about "is terrorism justified?" and my thought is "never," then I think about the best sci-fi novel ever written, Dune, and how I cheer on the fedaykin, who in reality are Islamic terrorists of a distant future, even though that was subtly (or not so?) when the book was written in the '60s.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                              Originally posted by Pego
                              Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                              blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment
                              This ignores roughly 1500 years of conflict. From the expansion of the Caliphate to North Africa and southern Europe, through the Crusades, through the Turkish wars, all the way into the 20th and 21st century. Massacres from both sides, endless cycles of violence, tit-for-tat. How many Christian-Muslim wars are being presently conducted or occurred just recently? Bosnia, Chechnya...Even Buddhist-Muslim (Sri Lanka, Myanmar), Hindu-Muslim in the subcontinent.
                              I am not going to minimize the impact of Israel-Palestine prolonged conflict, but to say that it is a root cause is a misstatement.
                              Pego boils it down.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

                                Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                                As I was saying earlier, that was a first step on the path to sanctions, and AIPAC knew it. However, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which nation is more devoted to Israel than the U.S.
                                Since I never wrote any nation was more devoted to Israel than the US, you will never get that answer from me.

                                Comment

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