Should we continue to aid Israel?

[TN1965]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

For example, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel when Rabin alive without getting anything in return because King Hussein could see that Rabin was sincere based on his actions.

Jordan got concession on water rights from Israel (the most important resource in the region). The US economic aid to Jordan also increased significantly right after the peace treaty.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

As I was saying earlier, that was a first step on the path to sanctions, and AIPAC knew it. However, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which nation is more devoted to Israel than the U.S.

Since I never wrote any nation was more devoted to Israel than the US, you will never get that answer from me.

You did say this:

There will be countries other than the US that will oppose the sanctions on Israel, if it goes to the level of the ones on South Africa.

Please list the countries that would block these sanctions if the U.S. quit playing an obstructionist role. As we know, there are only four nations, the U.K., France, China and Russia, which could block them single-handedly, while the others would need collaborators to block them.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

In response to the original, we should quit giving aid to all the nations of the Mideast, and let them sort out their grievances without us, since our aid, which is mostly of the military variety, only adds fuel to the fire. The problem with the whole region is that there are no statesmen (eg. Nelson Mandela), only tribal leaders who are only interested in seeing their tribe come out on top at the expense everyone else. Netanyahu leads the Likud settler tribe, Khamenei and Al-Maliki lead the Shiite tribe, Al-Sisi leads the military/kleptocrat tribe, King Adbullah (Saudi Arabia) leads the Sunni tribe, etc. If Mandela had had the same mindset of today's Mideast leaders, South Africa today would look like Zimbabwe.

[mrbowie]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

Everybody including Israel understands exactly how to end the conflict but such is Israel's clout within the U. S. that Israel realizes they can continue its land grab without too much opposition. That is the problem.

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment

This ignores roughly 1500 years of conflict. From the expansion of the Caliphate to North Africa and southern Europe, through the Crusades, through the Turkish wars, all the way into the 20th and 21st century. Massacres from both sides, endless cycles of violence, tit-for-tat. How many Christian-Muslim wars are being presently conducted or occurred just recently? Bosnia, Chechnya...Even Buddhist-Muslim (Sri Lanka, Myanmar), Hindu-Muslim in the subcontinent.
I am not going to minimize the impact of Israel-Palestine prolonged conflict, but to say that it is a root cause is a misstatement.

I never meant to imply that Israel-Palestine was the only cause of anti-American/anti-Western sentiment. The U.S. would still have an imperialist foreign policy if Israel had never been founded and there would still be a lot of radical fundamentalist Islamist in the region if Israel had never been founded. However, I sincerely believe that the way Israel was founded and the ongoing usurpation and oppression of the Palestinians is one of the major grievances of folks in the region. Not only did George Marshall predict that Israel would become an American albatross nearly 70 years ago, but David Petraeus said that it continues to be one as recently as four years ago.

[TN1965]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

You did say this:

There will be countries other than the US that will oppose the sanctions on Israel, if it goes to the level of the ones on South Africa.

Please list the countries that would block these sanctions if the U.S. quit playing an obstructionist role. As we know, there are only four nations, the U.K., France, China and Russia, which could block them single-handedly, while the others would need collaborators to block them.

I wrote what I wrote. There will be countries that will oppose a South Africa-style sanctions on Israel.

You seem to believe there are only two choices for every country: either to oppose any resolution that condemns Israel, or to support a "South Africa-style" sanctions. That dichotomy exists only in your imagination. :roll:

[jazzcyclist]

Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

I wrote what I wrote. There will be countries that will oppose a South Africa-style sanctions on Israel.

So you can't answer a multiple choice question in which there are only four answers to choose from? Nice dodge.

You seem to believe there are only two choices for every country: either to oppose any resolution that condemns Israel, or to support a "South Africa-style" sanctions. That dichotomy exists only in your imagination. :roll:

I don't know why you're so caught up on the phrase "South Africa-style sanctions", but try to stop looking at the trees and look at the whole forest for a moment. Sanctions on South Africa, or any other nation, start gradually and are ratcheted up over time if the previous ones don't get the desired results, and condemnations at the U.N. Security Council are the first step in the process. The reason the U.S. opposed the settlement condemnation is because it opposes even getting on the sanctions track, because in recent history our policy has been that sticks (economic and diplomatic pressure) should never be used on Israel, only carrots (military and economic rewards), and under Likud's leadership, all Israel does is take our carrots and ignore us. Any intellectually honest person who has been paying attention realizes that if the U.S. quit playing its obstructionist role, the U.N. would be free to start using sticks on Israel because no other nation has a carrot-only policy where Israel is concerned, despite what you claim.

But let's remember that Bush 41 was able to cause the collapse of Shamir's government by just freezing loan guarantees, so in reality, sanctions wouldn't need to get to the South Africa level in order to cause Israelis to kick the Netanyahu government to the curb. If Obama hadn't vetoed the settlements resolution, it would have sent shock waves throughout Israeli politics, though like Bush 41, it might also caused him to be a one-term President.