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Should we continue to aid Israel?

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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by TN1965
    I wrote what I wrote. There will be countries that will oppose a South Africa-style sanctions on Israel.
    So you can't answer a multiple choice question in which there are only four answers to choose from? Nice dodge.

    Originally posted by TN1965
    You seem to believe there are only two choices for every country: either to oppose any resolution that condemns Israel, or to support a "South Africa-style" sanctions. That dichotomy exists only in your imagination. :roll:
    I don't know why you're so caught up on the phrase "South Africa-style sanctions", but try to stop looking at the trees and look at the whole forest for a moment. Sanctions on South Africa, or any other nation, start gradually and are ratcheted up over time if the previous ones don't get the desired results, and condemnations at the U.N. Security Council are the first step in the process. The reason the U.S. opposed the settlement condemnation is because it opposes even getting on the sanctions track, because in recent history our policy has been that sticks (economic and diplomatic pressure) should never be used on Israel, only carrots (military and economic rewards), and under Likud's leadership, all Israel does is take our carrots and ignore us. Any intellectually honest person who has been paying attention realizes that if the U.S. quit playing its obstructionist role, the U.N. would be free to start using sticks on Israel because no other nation has a carrot-only policy where Israel is concerned, despite what you claim.

    But let's remember that Bush 41 was able to cause the collapse of Shamir's government by just freezing loan guarantees, so in reality, sanctions wouldn't need to get to the South Africa level in order to cause Israelis to kick the Netanyahu government to the curb. If Obama hadn't vetoed the settlements resolution, it would have sent shock waves throughout Israeli politics, though like Bush 41, it might also caused him to be a one-term President.

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  • TN1965
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    You did say this:
    Originally posted by TN1965
    There will be countries other than the US that will oppose the sanctions on Israel, if it goes to the level of the ones on South Africa.
    Please list the countries that would block these sanctions if the U.S. quit playing an obstructionist role. As we know, there are only four nations, the U.K., France, China and Russia, which could block them single-handedly, while the others would need collaborators to block them.
    I wrote what I wrote. There will be countries that will oppose a South Africa-style sanctions on Israel.

    You seem to believe there are only two choices for every country: either to oppose any resolution that condemns Israel, or to support a "South Africa-style" sanctions. That dichotomy exists only in your imagination. :roll:

    Leave a comment:


  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by Pego
    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment
    This ignores roughly 1500 years of conflict. From the expansion of the Caliphate to North Africa and southern Europe, through the Crusades, through the Turkish wars, all the way into the 20th and 21st century. Massacres from both sides, endless cycles of violence, tit-for-tat. How many Christian-Muslim wars are being presently conducted or occurred just recently? Bosnia, Chechnya...Even Buddhist-Muslim (Sri Lanka, Myanmar), Hindu-Muslim in the subcontinent.
    I am not going to minimize the impact of Israel-Palestine prolonged conflict, but to say that it is a root cause is a misstatement.
    I never meant to imply that Israel-Palestine was the only cause of anti-American/anti-Western sentiment. The U.S. would still have an imperialist foreign policy if Israel had never been founded and there would still be a lot of radical fundamentalist Islamist in the region if Israel had never been founded. However, I sincerely believe that the way Israel was founded and the ongoing usurpation and oppression of the Palestinians is one of the major grievances of folks in the region. Not only did George Marshall predict that Israel would become an American albatross nearly 70 years ago, but David Petraeus said that it continues to be one as recently as four years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • mrbowie
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Everybody including Israel understands exactly how to end the conflict but such is Israel's clout within the U. S. that Israel realizes they can continue its land grab without too much opposition. That is the problem.

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  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    In response to the original, we should quit giving aid to all the nations of the Mideast, and let them sort out their grievances without us, since our aid, which is mostly of the military variety, only adds fuel to the fire. The problem with the whole region is that there are no statesmen (eg. Nelson Mandela), only tribal leaders who are only interested in seeing their tribe come out on top at the expense everyone else. Netanyahu leads the Likud settler tribe, Khamenei and Al-Maliki lead the Shiite tribe, Al-Sisi leads the military/kleptocrat tribe, King Adbullah (Saudi Arabia) leads the Sunni tribe, etc. If Mandela had had the same mindset of today's Mideast leaders, South Africa today would look like Zimbabwe.

    Leave a comment:


  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by TN1965
    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    As I was saying earlier, that was a first step on the path to sanctions, and AIPAC knew it. However, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which nation is more devoted to Israel than the U.S.
    Since I never wrote any nation was more devoted to Israel than the US, you will never get that answer from me.
    You did say this:
    Originally posted by TN1965
    There will be countries other than the US that will oppose the sanctions on Israel, if it goes to the level of the ones on South Africa.
    Please list the countries that would block these sanctions if the U.S. quit playing an obstructionist role. As we know, there are only four nations, the U.K., France, China and Russia, which could block them single-handedly, while the others would need collaborators to block them.

    Leave a comment:


  • TN1965
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    For example, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel when Rabin alive without getting anything in return because King Hussein could see that Rabin was sincere based on his actions.
    Jordan got concession on water rights from Israel (the most important resource in the region). The US economic aid to Jordan also increased significantly right after the peace treaty.

    Leave a comment:


  • TN1965
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    As I was saying earlier, that was a first step on the path to sanctions, and AIPAC knew it. However, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which nation is more devoted to Israel than the U.S.
    Since I never wrote any nation was more devoted to Israel than the US, you will never get that answer from me.

    Leave a comment:


  • lonewolf
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by Pego
    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment
    This ignores roughly 1500 years of conflict. From the expansion of the Caliphate to North Africa and southern Europe, through the Crusades, through the Turkish wars, all the way into the 20th and 21st century. Massacres from both sides, endless cycles of violence, tit-for-tat. How many Christian-Muslim wars are being presently conducted or occurred just recently? Bosnia, Chechnya...Even Buddhist-Muslim (Sri Lanka, Myanmar), Hindu-Muslim in the subcontinent.
    I am not going to minimize the impact of Israel-Palestine prolonged conflict, but to say that it is a root cause is a misstatement.
    Pego boils it down.

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    […..

    The U.S. is the world's most powerful nation, and if we want other folks to change their attitude about us, we have to treat them differently, and if we do that, we can expect their attitudes to change accordingly…..
    Not to appear too intolerant, but from where I stand, there's nothing short of a planet-wide caliphate that will quell the savage urges of the current bad guys. They can only be stopped by brute force. (no, i can't believe I'm taking such an extreme stance, but I see no other route that's remotely feasible at this point; these guys are using 21st-century technology to enable/arouse 10th-century peasants and making it sound to them as if it's god's will)

    Funny, we have a concurrent thread about "is terrorism justified?" and my thought is "never," then I think about the best sci-fi novel ever written, Dune, and how I cheer on the fedaykin, who in reality are Islamic terrorists of a distant future, even though that was subtly (or not so?) when the book was written in the '60s.

    Leave a comment:


  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by gh
    logic not circular at all; i said historical misdeeds were, relative to my posting, irrelevant. We're talking bout the future here, unless you think Israel's disappearance is the only thing that will stop the tide of Islamic fanaticism. I'm simply saying that at this point in time, for purely pragmatic reasons, the answer to the question as posed is clearly yes. With no debate required.
    I guess I see it differently. The cat must attempt to make peace with the mouse, the mouse can't afford to make peace with the cat. In 2002, Ayatollah Khamenei found out how dangerous it was for the mouse to make peace with the cat, because after 9/11, Iran went out of its way to support the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, doing everything that could be expected and then some, and in return, W included them in his "Axis of Evil" speech and since then we've been trying to sanction them into the stone age.

    The U.S. is the world's most powerful nation, and if we want other folks to change their attitude about us, we have to treat them differently, and if we do that, we can expect their attitudes to change accordingly. I would also say the same for Israel, because if you look back at when Rabin was alive, Arab leaders recognized that he was a different kind of Israeli leader and they began to reciprocate to his peace overtures. For example, Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel when Rabin alive without getting anything in return because King Hussein could see that Rabin was sincere based on his actions.

    Also, IMO opinion, we get little to nothing in return for our support for Israel (no peace with the Palestinians, no military bases, no troops, etc.) and since Likud has been in power we less than nothing, we get backstabbed with false flags and other acts of treachery.

    Leave a comment:


  • jazzcyclist
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by TN1965
    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    Do you not remember how the Obama administration was condemned by world leaders fro m EVERYWHERE when it vetoed action on the settlements a couple of years ago? It wasn't a 13-2 vote or a 12-3 vote, it was a 14-1 vote.
    And those 14 countries were not trying to impose "South Africa-style" sanctions.

    Here is the draft of resolution.

    http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc ... =S/2011/24
    As I was saying earlier, that was a first step on the path to sanctions, and AIPAC knew it. However, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which nation is more devoted to Israel than the U.S.

    Leave a comment:


  • gh
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    Originally posted by gh
    to give a short answer to the actual question posed as the thread starter: so long as the region is full of (and getting fuller) of anti-American (indeed, anti-Western) sentiment, the U.S. has no choice from either an economic or military point of view but to continue.

    Those two simple facts of life outweigh all the arguing about moral right & wrong, historical misdeeds, etc., etc.
    This sounds like circular logic because it is the blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment in the first place.
    logic not circular at all; i said historical misdeeds were, relative to my posting, irrelevant. We're talking bout the future here, unless you think Israel's disappearance is the only thing that will stop the tide of Islamic fanaticism. I'm simply saying that at this point in time, for purely pragmatic reasons, the answer to the question as posed is clearly yes. With no debate required.

    Leave a comment:


  • TN1965
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    Do you not remember how the Obama administration was condemned by world leaders fro m EVERYWHERE when it vetoed action on the settlements a couple of years ago? It wasn't a 13-2 vote or a 12-3 vote, it was a 14-1 vote.
    And those 14 countries were not trying to impose "South Africa-style" sanctions.

    Here is the draft of resolution.

    http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc ... =S/2011/24

    Leave a comment:


  • Pego
    replied
    Re: Should we continue to aid Israel?

    Originally posted by jazzcyclist
    blind support for Israel that is the root cause of much of the anti-American/anti-Western sentiment
    This ignores roughly 1500 years of conflict. From the expansion of the Caliphate to North Africa and southern Europe, through the Crusades, through the Turkish wars, all the way into the 20th and 21st century. Massacres from both sides, endless cycles of violence, tit-for-tat. How many Christian-Muslim wars are being presently conducted or occurred just recently? Bosnia, Chechnya...Even Buddhist-Muslim (Sri Lanka, Myanmar), Hindu-Muslim in the subcontinent.
    I am not going to minimize the impact of Israel-Palestine prolonged conflict, but to say that it is a root cause is a misstatement.

    Leave a comment:

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