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  • #76
    Originally posted by user4 View Post

    The right to own and keep arms does not grant you or anyone the right to confront and impede unarmed citizens on public ways. Your understanding of the 2nd amendment and the NRA is sophomoric.

    Also the title of the thread is misleading on a number of issues, not only "stand your ground" but also the idea of a "vigilante". To the best of my knowledge there is no physical evidence at all that Arbery committed a crime and was being pursued for that reason. There has been no evidence that he had assaulted anyone. If there were I would be willing to discuss the video in that light but so far his murderers do not deserve to be called "vigilantes", they are felonious criminals of the worst kind, with no regard for human life.
    My understanding of the 2nd amendment and that of the NRA is quite good, thank you.

    Your take on what happened would appear to be correct absent some further evidence in favor of the arrested and charged. Your implied take on what actions the NRA will take in terms of funding a defense as a for example seems to be lacking. A similar case here in Florida has had much of that type of input from the NRA. When I first posted that message which was at least 2 weeks ago, the arrest had just been made and it was thought that SYG would be an issue. Now looking at it, it's probably at best a self defense defense.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post
      Your implied take on what actions the NRA will take in terms of funding a defense as a for example seems to be lacking. A similar case here in Florida has had much of that type of input from the NRA. When I first posted that message which was at least 2 weeks ago, the arrest had just been made and it was thought that SYG would be an issue. Now looking at it, it's probably at best a self defense defense.
      When the right "to keep and bear arms" is foolishly dragged into every murder trial rather than the careless actions of the criminals I can easily see how the NRA gets involved. If you choose to make enemies of law abiding citizens for no good reason, we shouldnt be surprised to find that they dont trust you with their rights.

      Interesting, when the case first became public, I immediately thought that Arbery's actions were justified based on SYG. I never thought for a minute that the murderers were standing their ground. It just goes to show how prior biased beliefs against SYG laws can so distort ones view of the basic facts.
      Last edited by user4; 05-22-2020, 06:11 PM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by gh View Post

        I don't think that's the issue at play here: it's that whites disproportionately kill blacks and end up walking.
        Exactly! Whether we're talking Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red, the vast majority (>90%)of murder victims are murdered by members of their own tribe, but there's a big difference with the conviction and incarceration rate of Black on White accused murderers than there is the other way around.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post

          Exactly! Whether we're talking Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red, the vast majority (>90%)of murder victims are murdered by members of their own tribe, but there's a big difference with the conviction and incarceration rate of Black on White accused murderers than there is the other way around.
          Except for the actual murder, the victim-blaming is the most disgraceful part (i.e. he had Skittles and iced tea and was wearing a hoodie... he was committing some random criminal act that no one can clarify... he looked like a suspect in a crime...)

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Helen S View Post
            “I cannot start an incident and escalate it to defend myself”. Which was exactly what happened when mr. Zimmerman stalked and killed Trayvon Martin.
            My sentiments exactly. Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight that he started. It may not have been 1st degree murder but it wasn't legitimate self-defense either.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
              My sentiments exactly. Zimmerman brought a gun to a fist fight that he started. It may not have been 1st degree murder but it wasn't legitimate self-defense either.
              It is almost impossible to know exactly what transpired that night. It seems implausible to me that Zimmerman started a fist fight with Martin.

              I genuinely consider these discussions helpful and positive, I have no ill will towards any of you guys. It is always good to hear the other side.

              I would hope we can agree that this was a murder but that SYG laws were not written nor can they be interpreted to justify what these thugs did. On the contrary, they will be properly used by the prosecutors to justify Arbery's actions when being confronted.
              Last edited by user4; 05-22-2020, 07:27 PM.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by user4 View Post

                When the right "to keep and bear arms" is foolishly dragged into every murder trial rather than the careless actions of the criminals I can easily see how the NRA gets involved. If you choose to make enemies of law abiding citizens for no good reason, we shouldnt be surprised to find that they dont trust you with their rights.

                Interesting, when the case first became public, I immediately thought that Arbery's actions were justified based on SYG. I never thought for a minute that the murderers were standing their ground. It just goes to show how prior biased beliefs against SYG laws can so distort ones view of the basic facts.
                When in doubt change to a tangent.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by user4 View Post


                  Also the title of the thread is misleading on a number of issues, not only "stand your ground" but also the idea of a "vigilante". To the best of my knowledge there is no physical evidence at all that Arbery committed a crime and was being pursued for that reason. There has been no evidence that he had assaulted anyone. If there were I would be willing to discuss the video in that light but so far his murderers do not deserve to be called "vigilantes", they are felonious criminals of the worst kind, with no regard for human life.
                  The title of the thread was written quickly off the tip of my tongue. As the purpose of a headline is to attract attention, I see nothing that is "misleading" about it.

                  A safe and peaceful Memorial Weekend to all.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by DJG View Post
                    The title of the thread was written quickly off the tip of my tongue. As the purpose of a headline is to attract attention, I see nothing that is "misleading" about it.

                    A safe and peaceful Memorial Weekend to all.
                    The title strongly suggests that stand your ground laws led or are used to justify murder. There was nothing in the facts of this case that point in that direction. Stand your ground laws were enacted to allow people to protect themselves from exactly this kind of abuse.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by user4 View Post
                      The title strongly suggests that stand your ground laws led or are used to justify murder. There was nothing in the facts of this case that point in that direction. Stand your ground laws were enacted to allow people to protect themselves from exactly this kind of abuse.
                      i think you may be reading between the lines a little deeply. This title was more of a inquiry about what appears
                      to me as another senseless, needless, tragic death in America. My title suggests 'Was this a case of vigilantes, stand your ground, self-defense, or murder?' Something along those lines.

                      stand your ground laws are ambiguous, poorly written laws; regardless of what their intended purpose is. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by athlete101 View Post

                        Spoken like a true person that doesn't understand white privilege. And it the same reason why we will always here, "an unarmed black man/women was shot to day while ...... in their own living room, walking down the street, going for a run, speeding, minding there own business.
                        It's a shame you are unable to see that. Its the same privilege that afforded these two men to go two months without being charged. [but its not about race........]
                        It's the same privilege that emboldened them leave their house, pick up guns and make a black man stop for them.
                        I take absolutely no pleasure in having to quote what I've previously written on here when confronted by those that remain ignorant. I'm sure most have heard, and some may have had the stomach to watch another black man, George Floyd murdered by those men in blue.
                        And on of that we had the disgraceful Amy Cooper being filmed choose to weaponize her white tears (AND USE HER WHITE PRIVILEGE) because she knew the potential harmful consequences of her actions......Another lynching of a black man. Luckily, Christian Cooper was filming that exchange which no doubt saved his life and enables more people to see how things really are.

                        I'm sick and tired of this.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by athlete101 View Post

                          I take absolutely no pleasure in having to quote what I've previously written on here when confronted by those that remain ignorant. I'm sure most have heard, and some may have had the stomach to watch another black man, George Floyd murdered by those men in blue.
                          And on of that we had the disgraceful Amy Cooper being filmed choose to weaponize her white tears (AND USE HER WHITE PRIVILEGE) because she knew the potential harmful consequences of her actions......Another lynching of a black man. Luckily, Christian Cooper was filming that exchange which no doubt saved his life and enables more people to see how things really are.

                          I'm sick and tired of this.
                          i have seen the video of the police officer kneeling on the neck of Mr. Floyd. I hope this officer who has been fired will also be prosecuted.

                          There is other video showing two officers walking the hand-cuffed Floyd on the sidewalk a good distance from the car (it appears) where he is shown on the ground. I suspect other videos are out there with 4 officers on the scene.

                          I found myself wondering what I would have done if I came upon this scene and saw what the video showed?
                          would I have just walked away? Would I have yelled at the officer to get off his neck? Would I have become enraged and push the officer off the gasping man? And if I did would one of the other officers have shot me in the back or at least beat me with a nightstick?

                          I travel to Baltimore on a regular basis, and I am thinking I better have a plan thought out.




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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by DJG View Post
                            i have seen the video of the police officer kneeling on the neck of Mr. Floyd. I hope this officer who has been fired will also be prosecuted.
                            The photos I have seen are exceedingly disturbing. They show police abuse that is clear to any unbiased observer. The federal government (FBI) needs to institute an automatic review and investigation of all deaths of persons in custody of any city/county/town authority.

                            I would caution folks from making this a racial issue. It is not. By only focusing and seeing the black deaths (as in this case) it is impossible to think this is not racial. However if the the full volume of deaths of black and white victims in conflict with police were aggregated, the view would be completely different.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by user4 View Post
                              However if the the full volume of deaths of black and white victims in conflict with police were aggregated, the view would be completely different.
                              Here we go again.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by J Rorick View Post

                                Here we go again.
                                As I said before....just ignore the guy....

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