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  • Meanwhile....

    The House is poised to approve a bill to remove Confederate statues from the U.S. Capitol and replace the bust of the Supreme Court justice who authored the 1857 Dred Scott decision denying freedom to an enslaved man with one of Justice Thurgood Marshall.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/NPR/statu...08583633731585

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
      In the context of American history, I agree Lee is not a 'traitor', but in the actual fact of his actions, there is no doubt that he was. Furthermore, my experience living in the South clearly informs me to never say that out loud. My Southern Belle wife (who does understand the big picture) gets very quiet when I momentarily lose my mind and happen to mention the Confederacy. She is, however , in favor of moving any and all statues to museums (for proper context, i.e., statues of shackled, beaten slaves), and supports the denaming movement.
      Actually in fact he was not a traitor by either law or facts of history. He was loyal to the state of Virginia, it was the State of Virginia that succeeded from the union in 1861. Pre civil war, he owed his allegiance to the state of Virginia, it was the legislature of Virginia that sent him to West Point. so to call him a traitor is a despicable slander by all the standards of civil war at the time and it was recognized as such by Union General Ulysses Grant. By the way Lee was also a war hero from the Mexican American war, we owe the state of New Mexico, Arizona and California to President Polk and the brave and courageous officers like Lee that won it for us.

      Civil wars are terrible things, they are the tearing apart of a nation. Each soldier and officer in the civil war was driven to make war by the civilian authorities of their states. The northern and southern soldiers did not commit treason, they were obeying their lawful governments.

      Even by today's standards it is impossible to see Lee as a traitor, imagine today a State legislature issuing laws against the federal government , if a police officer enforces those laws are they committing treason against the Federal authority ? All blame rests on the legislatures of the states.
      Last edited by user4; 07-22-2020, 10:57 PM.

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      • It's really not as complicated as user4 would have us believe. It doesn't take pages and pages of legalese and mumbo jumbo to explain what Lee did, which is take up arms against his national government, and that's teason anywhere on the world.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
          take up arms against his national government, and that's treason anywhere on the world.
          a nation which, as mentioned before, he had sworn a solemn oath (at his commissioning at West Point) to

          "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
          To break that oath is . . . treason.

          Comment


          • Seems like pretty much everyone around here except for paulthetroll jr. agrees that Lee qualifies as a traitor so can we move on . . .

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
              It's really not as complicated as user4 would have us believe. It doesn't take pages and pages of legalese and mumbo jumbo to explain what Lee did, which is take up arms against his national government, and that's teason anywhere on the world.
              Except that in the USA the concept of a "national government" meant different things to the different states. And the legislatures of those states saw themselves as the mediating authority between the national government and its citizens. User4 does not make it complicated, it is just that the world in 1850 was different than the world today.

              For instance each State legislature from each States voted on who would be sent to the US Senate. Each State legislature decided who to send to West Point. You are asking Lee to commit treason against the State of Virginia and if he doesnt commit treason against the state of Virginia he commits treason against the Federal Government. No, that is absurd and to put a man in such a trap is a horrible injustice. He did not commit treason, there were countless politicians that wanted to try him for treason and they never had a case, they had lawyer gotcha tricks. Lay all of the blame on the State of Virginia to which Lee was obligated but none to Lee. That is how Grant saw it and that ends it.

              The southern legislatures did not see themselves as committing treason, in fact they saw themselves as fullfiling the US constitution and they saw the Northern states as acting against that constitution, in using the US legislature to extort from them through tariffs. It was a civil war. There were two goals for Lincoln, 1) save the Union of the states (that is to bring back into the union the sceceeded states) 2) free the slaves of the south. Through Grant, Lincoln accomplished both.

              Now as an aside, there is in fact no oath, civil, military or religious in all the history of the world that is eternal and without an exception. We have how many divorces each year in America ? Are each of these divorces a treason ?

              Ill just add that if you ever lived in New Mexico, Arizona or California, you owe Robert E. Lee more than you know.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by bad hammy View Post
                Seems like pretty much everyone around here except for paulthetroll jr. agrees that Lee qualifies as a traitor so can we move on . . .
                Second that....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bad hammy View Post
                  Seems like pretty much everyone around here .. agrees that Lee qualifies as a traitor so can we move on . . .
                  Yes, user4 has made the clear case against treason and he has U.S. Grant and Gerald Ford in agreement. Ill let your sophomoric one dimensional judgments on the matter be taken at face value.
                  Last edited by user4; 07-23-2020, 07:52 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by user4 View Post
                    Ill let your sophomoric one dimensional judgments on the matter be taken at face value.
                    So much for civil discourse . . .

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                    • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                      So much for civil discourse . . .
                      do you ever see a crossing of the line by those in your own party ? I have no qualms with anyone here, I woudnt be here if I didnt really enjoy it. I wish I could write more, but Im pressed with obligations and duties that limit my time lately. I try to bring facts to bear that would otherwise be absent in an echo chamber of the left. If these facts are uncomfortable, argue with Grant and Ford and countless, countless others, including serious scholars. Dont be offended and gnash your teeth at user4. I have the greatest respect for Atticus and countless others here, i know a bit about your life and contributions, they are voluminous and significant. If you saw user4 in person you would love him.
                      Last edited by user4; 07-23-2020, 08:25 PM.

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                      • Moving on, a provocative op-ed piece in today's NY Times ponders whether we should continue to respect and teach the learnings of an individual who "did not merely condone slavery, he defended it; he did not merely defend it, but defended it as beneficial to the slave. His view was that some people are, by nature, unable to pursue their own good, and best suited to be “living tools” for use by other people: “The slave is a part of the master, a living but separated part of his bodily frame.”

                        His "anti-liberalism does not stop there. He believed that women were incapable of authoritative decision making."

                        The individual in question was Aristotle.

                        https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/o...aristotle.html

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tandfman View Post
                          The individual in question was Aristotle.
                          330BC.
                          As noted before, we can pretty much label everyone over 200 years ago as an -ist everything.
                          There are plenty of citations in our own ancient religious texts accepting the idea of slavery.

                          Comment


                          • I saw that Aristotle article I thought it was rather ridiculous...

                            Meanwhile....

                            Senate passes defense bill by veto-proof majority, despite Trump’s warnings over Confederate-named bases

                            The Senate passed its version of a $740 billion defense bill Thursday by a veto-proof majority, in the latest sign that Congress is undeterred by President Trump’s threat to reject legislation mandating that the Pentagon rename bases honoring Confederate generals.

                            The 86-to-14 Senate vote follows the House’s 295-to-125 vote earlier in the week on parallel legislation. Both bills instruct the Defense Department to come up with new names for the problematic bases; the Senate gives the Pentagon three years to make the changes, while the House bill instructs officials to finish the process within one year.

                            https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ge%2Fstory-ans



                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post
                              I saw that Aristotle article I thought it was rather ridiculous...
                              Did you just see it, or did you actually read it?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tandfman View Post
                                Did you just see it, or did you actually read it?
                                I read it yesterday....I thought I'd post it here and then read it.
                                Last edited by Conor Dary; 07-24-2020, 01:59 AM.

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