Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Clemson University [monuments & names]

Collapse

Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    I was hesitant to weight in on this topic but here goes.. Winners write history.. but they cannot completely erase it.

    My instinctive and considered opinion is that there is a lingering lesson in these surviving tributes to valiant losers, who were sincere in their conviction. Slavery was unarguably wrong then, as it is now, but these are reminders of a period in our history that cannot, must not be ignored or forgotten; akin to WWII concentration camps in Nazi Germany, preserved as a constant, permanent example of man's inhumanity to man.

    How far back do we take retribution and reparations? Native Americans, subjugated and decimated, have a dilemma comparable to that of contemporary blacks. My paternal pre-Revolution European ancestors displaced my Native American maternal ancestors. Which side do I take?

    Immigrant homesteaders, abetted by the US government, invaded and destroyed a nation and altered a continent. This is the history of mankind that, right or wrong, cannot be changed.

    We cannot undo history. We can only learn from it.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
      My instinctive and considered opinion is that there is a lingering lesson in these surviving tributes to valiant losers, who were sincere in their conviction. Slavery was unarguably wrong then, as it is now, but these are reminders of a period in our history that cannot, must not be ignored or forgotten; akin to WWII concentration camps in Nazi Germany, preserved as a constant, permanent example of man's inhumanity to man.
      The statues and the base names are there to glorify, rather than condemn, traitorous racist slaver losers. Long past time for them to depart the scene.


      Last edited by bad hammy; 06-15-2020, 03:18 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
        akin to WWII concentration camps in Nazi Germany, preserved as a constant, permanent example of man's inhumanity to man.
        Yes, as bh notes, but no one wants statues glorifying the men who ran them.

        Comment


        • #49
          The Confederate statues were almost all created starting in the 1920s during the Jim Crow era as a symbol of white supremacy. They should all go...and renaming the military bases which the Senate committee just passed.

          Comment


          • #50
            https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54426...emacist-future

            Comment


            • #51

              Robert Gates Calls to Replace Base Names From ‘Dark Side of Our History’

              The former defense secretary became the most senior previous military leader in recent days to endorse renaming 10 Army installations that bear the names of Confederate generals.

              https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/u....co/GdjVRTZOSx

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post
                The Confederate statues were almost all created starting in the 1920s during the Jim Crow era as a symbol of white supremacy. They should all go...and renaming the military bases which the Senate committee just passed.
                I agree. I think we're finally seeing the pendulum make a full swing, and if we are over-zealous in erasing problematic names from places and things, then so be it. It's not like we are even going to get close to righting past wrongs.
                Saw a video of an Army Colonel (A-A) who feels Confederate statues should stay, because "History is not there for you to like or dislike." I would respond, 'Yeah, but we must learn from it and not legitimize the evil that has gone before.'
                There will be a back-lash to this movement, which (the back-lash) will be demonized as being purely racist, which is not always the case, but the time is ripe right now to correct some blatant wrongs that have survived far too long, so strike while the iron is hot and get rid of the names that keep the wounds open. I wouldn't mind seeing the Russell (devout segregationist who repeatedly blocked or defeated civil rights legislation) Senate Office Building be one of them.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
                  ..
                  We cannot undo history. We can only learn from it.
                  When Lee surrendered to Grant he did so knowing that he had fought with honor, he could have continued to wage gorillawar, fought a kind of war that brought civilian losses but he chose not to, for honors sake. The South were greatly outnumbered, and with inferior supplies and industry and yet they fought nobly, limiting civilian deaths. Prior to the civil war each man was first and foremost a son of his state in a way that we don't really experience today. Today we think of ourselves as citizens of the USA as a super nation, but it really was the United States of America. Lee had little choice but to defend Virginia. You have to be historically illiterate to call him a traitor. Not even Northerners in 1860 saw the war in those terms.

                  in the end each side had some honorable goals , we can be thankful that the great cause of liberty was extended, bringing freedom to people who never knew their birthright of liberty. The great victory of the grand army of the republic completed the promise of our founding fathers that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights.

                  Our brothers to the South fought honorable, valiantly and layed down their arms when the war was lost and could no longer be fought without dishonorable losses. for these reasons, the north chose to remember the Southerners courage, wherewithal, military grit, and determination, doing much with so little to do it.

                  This was the honest, sincere bargain that the country made North to South, South to North, in order for true bonds of friendship to be restored.

                  ​​This was the good will that men before us had towards each other. Those days are long gone, and we seem ready for a new civil war. I only wish this new civil war we're about liberating someone so I could get on board.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I've always seen the Civil War as an armed insurrection against the lawfully constituted government of the United States. Nothing honorable about that. That it was fought mainly to advance the institution of slavery makes it worse.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post
                      The Confederate statues were almost all created starting in the 1920s during the Jim Crow era as a symbol of white supremacy. They should all go...and renaming the military bases which the Senate committee just passed.
                      And the military bases named after Confederate generals were built during WWI.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by tandfman View Post
                        I've always seen the Civil War as an armed insurrection against the lawfully constituted government of the United States. Nothing honorable about that. That it was fought mainly to advance the institution of slavery makes it worse.
                        I'm guessing your view of the American revolution is not that much better.

                        We can be thankful to Lincoln for the great emancipation of the slave population as the goal of the war. It's not really fair to judge men conscripted by their governments to serve. Slavery was a worldwide institution, that a great movement swept the hearts of men in the anglosphere to end it is a wonder of self sacrifice and love . The small handful of men in the south that were profiting from this had great resources to propagandize their poor dirt farming southern enlisted men.

                        Lee was kin of George Washington and he was a good man, he was not fighting to extend slavery, read his own words, he fought for Virginia, that was his commission. He lost everything in the war but gave back after the
                        e war with a life of duty to the United States.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
                          I was hesitant to weight in on this topic but here goes.. Winners write history.. but they cannot completely erase it.

                          My instinctive and considered opinion is that there is a lingering lesson in these surviving tributes to valiant losers, who were sincere in their conviction. Slavery was unarguably wrong then, as it is now, but these are reminders of a period in our history that cannot, must not be ignored or forgotten; akin to WWII concentration camps in Nazi Germany, preserved as a constant, permanent example of man's inhumanity to man.
                          Following this logic I suppose there should also be German statues, buildings and military bases to honor Adolf Hitler, Hermann Goering and Heinrich Himmler. The American equivalent of Dachau and Auschwitz are places like the Whitney Plantation and the Lorraine Motel, not monuments to unreconstructed Confederate generals and politicians. To my knowledge, the U..S. is the only nation in history in which the losers in a civil war are allowed to celebrate their leaders at the taxpayers' expense.

                          Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
                          How far back do we take retribution and reparations? Native Americans, subjugated and decimated, have a dilemma comparable to that of contemporary blacks.
                          I would say far worse than Blacks. The usurpation, subjugation and extermination of the Red man at the hands of the White man is one of the worst crimes against humanity over the last 500 years and will forever undermine the moral legitimacy of this nation's founding.

                          Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
                          My paternal pre-Revolution European ancestors displbaced my Native American maternal ancestors. Which side do I take?
                          As someone who also has European ancestors, that's an easy question for me. I always side against the oppressors and with the oppressed.


                          Originally posted by lonewolf View Post
                          Immigrant homesteaders, abetted by the US government, invaded and destroyed a nation and altered a continent. This is the history of mankind that, right or wrong, cannot be changed.

                          We cannot undo history. We can only learn from it.
                          Amen to this.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by user4 View Post


                            This was the honest, sincere bargain that the country made North to South, South to North, in order for true bonds of friendship to be restored.

                            ​​This was the good will that men before us had towards each other. Those days are long gone, and we seem ready for a new civil war. I only wish this new civil war we're about liberating someone so I could get on board.
                            Unfortunately, the South abrogated that bargain by reinstituting all the evils that had supposedly been nullified by the North's victory. It wasn't slavery technically, because you couldn't hang someone else's slave under slavery, but it probably was worse under Jim Crow. And the North let them do it.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Conor Dary View Post
                              The Confederate statues were almost all created starting in the 1920s during the Jim Crow era as a symbol of white supremacy. They should all go...and renaming the military bases which the Senate committee just passed.
                              Over the last 155 years, there has been a segment of society that periodically pulls these sort of stunts that indicate that they would like to re-litigate the Civil War. The Union was far too accommodating to the Confederates at Appomattox.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                And comparing the colonists' role in the American Revolution to that of the the South in the Civil War is totally bogus. The colonists were fighting for more freedoms for their citizens from the control of the British. The South was also fighting to remove themseves from the control of the U.S. govt. BUT they were fighting to keep brutal contol of slaves. It would have been noble if the Confederacy was revolting to free the slaves, but it was just the opposite. Glad they lost; they deserved it. I favor the reparations for slavery, but all the payments should come from the former Confedaracy states.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X