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  • #16
    Originally posted by polevaultpower View Post

    I don't think too many pole vault people consciously feel that way, I think they have a hard time connecting the dots between their actions and why the event is so white.
    It works both ways, though. We've have this discussion many times before about how US coaches push white teens into running longer distances even when they show clear evidence of sprinting talent.
    Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Atticus View Post

      To be blunt, that author drew the exact opposite conclusion that she should have. If we blow off our implicit biases, we excuse ourselves from thinking we're racist. We all know people that are in complete denial of their racism, and would never do anything overtly racist, but are definitely part of the problem. If we confront our biases, we will begin to notice what disadvanted people see all the time, the ways they are not treated as the 'privileged' ones are.
      Not sure how you came to that reading? The author did no such thing as suggest to 'blow off our implicit bias.' You can also read the other papers on this issue cited in the references:
      • For three superb reviews of the research, with inter views with the IAT’s proponents and its critics, see: Singal, Jesse. 2017. “Psychology’s Favorite Tool For Measuring Racism Isn’t Up to the Job,” New York magazine, Januar y 11; Bar tlett, Tom. 2017. “Can We Really Measure Implicit Bias? Maybe Not,” Chronicle of Higher Education, January 5; and a power ful scholarly and theoretical criticism, Mitchell, Gregor y, and Tetlock, Philip E. 2017. “Popularity as a Poor Proxy for Utility: The Case of Implicit Prejudice,” in Scott Lilienfeld and Irwin D. Waldman, Psychological Science Under Scrutiny, New York: Wiley, pp. 164–195. Tetlock has been a persistent critic of the IAT. See Tetlock and Arkes, Hal, 2004. “Attributions of Implicit Prejudice, or ‘Would Jesse Jackson ‘Fail’ the Implicit Association Test?’” Psychological Inquiry, Vol. 15, 257–278.
      • Oswald, Frederick L., Gregor y Mitchell, Har t Blanton, James Jaccard, and Philip E. Tetlock. 2013. “Predicting Ethnic and Racial Discrimination: A Meta-Analysis of IAT Criterion Studies,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol. 105, 171–192.

      As for 'learning' empathy, we certainly can. Put people in disadvantaged situations and see how they like it.
      I agree with this but again it does not jive with your point about white people not being able to feel for black people's experiences and then suggesting that the answer to this is empathy.
      Last edited by proofs in the pudd'in; 09-15-2020, 11:04 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Powell View Post

        It works both ways, though. We've have this discussion many times before about how US coaches push white teens into running longer distances even when they show clear evidence of sprinting talent.
        I have heard, but not actually looked into, this type of thing regarding American Football and Basketball (I'm guessing certain positions of course). Anybody familiar with this area?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Atticus View Post
          a. Simply not true. Psychological research shows that Implicit Bias is present in everyone, from infancy up. When pictures are flashed on a screen and we are asked to assign a positive or negative value to it, pictures of people NOT like us cause a small, but consistently perceptible hesitation in assigning a positive value. We are all racist. The question is, what are we going to do about it?
          I don't think anyone comes out of the womb prejudiced. Bigotry is a learned behaviot.
          Originally posted by Atticus View Post
          Most people are uncomfortable with their racism, so try to ignore it, which leads to real Racism, the kind that is materially detrimental.[/b]
          I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The folks who are comfortable with their racism are the ones who don't try to do anything about it, not the other way around. The folks carrying tiki torches in Charlottesville a few years ago were comfortable with their racism.
          Originally posted by Atticus View Post
          b. There actually ARE ways to increase one's empathy, but it HURTS, so we tend to avoid it. We are constantly bombarded by evidence of injustice, and we become numb to it. 'Not my problem.'
          This may be true but I believe a large part of our empathy is innate, though I'm I'm sure our environment and upbringing has something to with it too.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Powell View Post

            It works both ways, though. We've have this discussion many times before about how US coaches push white teens into running longer distances even when they show clear evidence of sprinting talent.
            I have never seen such in 30+ years involved in the sport here, including as a coach.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
              I don't think anyone comes out of the womb prejudiced. Bigotry is a learned behaviot.
              I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The folks who are comfortable with their racism are the ones who don't try to do anything about it, not the other way around. The folks carrying tiki torches in Charlottesville a few years ago were comfortable with their racism.
              This may be true but I believe a large part of our empathy is innate, though I'm I'm sure our environment and upbringing has something to with it too.
              We disagree, but mostly on semantics. We ARE born bigoted, if bigotry means we devalue people who aren't like us. It's bred into us through evolution. Fear and distrust people who aren't like you - they are competition for your resources.
              98% percent us (to make up a number) don't want to be perceived as racist, so when we think about the differences among us, we never admit the inherent racism in us. Racism, in this context (the semantics), means notices differences and put values on the differences, which we ALL do. White-supremists are the only people who are comfortable with their racism, and I know LOTS of people, none of whom are White Suprememists, but some of which are definitely racist.
              Yes, much empathy is 'nature', but there's also a large 'nurture' component. Good schools do it and I've seen it at work.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by gm View Post
                I have never seen such in 30+ years involved in the sport here, including as a coach.
                Agreed. Sprint talent is never ignored. When it doesn't pan out, we do look for other events, hurdles, jumps, longer races. But no, you NEVER ignore sprint talent in anyone.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                  We ARE born bigoted . . .
                  Speak for yourself, my friend. Just popped-out newborns are neutral on the subject . . .



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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by bad hammy View Post
                    Speak for yourself, my friend. Just popped-out newborns are neutral on the subject . . .
                    They don't have the neural networks to even distinguish differences. But by the time they do, 1-2 years old, they are already making value judgements about differences they see.
                    I am speaking for myself, of course, but the research is clear, racism is an inherent human trait. Once we embrace that, then and only then, can we make a difference. Before the BLM movement started, didn't we all know they did? What's changed? The awareness of how pervasive it is, and how little we're doing to reverse its effects. The knee-jerk first reaction to Kaepernick by most whites was disgust. By Blacks, it was understood.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                      We disagree, but mostly on semantics. We ARE born bigoted, if bigotry means we devalue people who aren't like us. It's bred into us through evolution. Fear and distrust people who aren't like you - they are competition for your resources.
                      No, it's not a semantics thing, we fundamentally disagree on the nature vs nurture debate. I don't know where you got this stuff from. All our bigotries are learned. Every single one.
                      Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                      98% percent us (to make up a number) don't want to be perceived as racist, so when we think about the differences among us, we never admit the inherent racism in us. Racism, in this context (the semantics), means notices differences and put values on the differences, which we ALL do. White-supremists are the only people who are comfortable with their racism, and I know LOTS of people, none of whom are White Suprememists, but some of which are definitely racist.
                      I disagree with you on this as well. The are plenty of bigots who are comfortable in their hatred besides White Supremacists, such as Islamophobes, homophobes, Nazis/anti-Jews, anti-Catholics, anti-Arabs, anti-Orientals to name a few. Hell, I know some Black Americans who hate African immigrants and would probably be card-carrying members of the KKK if they had been born White.
                      Last edited by jazzcyclist; 09-16-2020, 11:24 AM.

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                      • #26
                        People throwing weird ideas around like dice... rather silly with all these accusations.


                        Are We All Racists Deep Inside?


                        I'm skeptical. First, unconscious states of mind are notoriously difficult to discern and require subtle experimental protocols to elicit. Second, associations between words and categories may simply be measuring familiar cultural or linguistic affiliations—associating “blue” and “sky” faster than “blue” and “doughnuts” does not mean I unconsciously harbor a pastry prejudice. Third, negative words have more emotional salience than positive words, so the IAT may be tapping into the negativity bias instead of prejudice. Fourth, IAT researchers have been unable to produce any interventions that can reduce the alleged prejudicial associations. A preprint of a 2016 meta-analysis by psychologist Patrick Forscher and his colleagues, made available on the Open Science Framework, examined 426 studies of 72,063 subjects and “found little evidence that changes in implicit bias mediate changes in explicit bias or behavior.” Fifth, the IAT does not predict prejudicial behavior. A 2013 meta-analysis by psychologist Frederick Oswald and his associates in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology concluded that “the IAT provides little insight into who will discriminate against whom.”

                        For centuries the arc of the moral universe has been bending toward justice as a result of changing people's explicit behaviors and beliefs, not on the basis of ferreting out implicit prejudicial witches through the spectral evidence of unconscious associations. Although bias and prejudice still exist, they are not remotely as bad as a mere half a century ago, much less half a millennium ago. We ought to acknowledge such progress and put our energies into figuring out what we have been doing right—and do more of it.


                        https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...s-deep-inside/

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                        • #27
                          Oscar Hammerstein II weighed in on this with the lyrics of the song "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught" from the musical South Pacific (1949).

                          >>You've got to be taught

                          To hate and fear,

                          You've got to be taught

                          From year to year,

                          It's got to be drummed

                          In your dear little ear

                          You've got to be carefully taught.



                          You've got to be taught to be afraid

                          Of people whose eyes are oddly made,

                          And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,

                          You've got to be carefully taught.



                          You've got to be taught before it's too late,

                          Before you are six or seven or eight,

                          To hate all the people your relatives hate,

                          You've got to be carefully taught!<<
                          Last edited by tandfman; 09-16-2020, 02:49 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Implicit Bias denial is like Global Warming denial in this way: deny it, do nothing and nothing changes. Accept it, and even if it doesn't exist, you can help the current 'pollution' situation.

                            The current tactic in helping the BLM movement is to become anti-racist. Assuming you are racist allows you to take affirmative action that you have ignored heretofore.

                            Works for me and mine and all my former students. Disregard if you wish. I'll cultivate my own garden.

                            I've given this my best shot and have nothing new to add, so Peace, Out.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                              ........

                              Works for me and mine and all my former students. Disregard if you wish. I'll cultivate my own garden.

                              )
                              I love the Voltaire reference...

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                              • #30
                                I do agree with Atticus that whether your parents give you your biases at conception or during childhood is besides the point. The main point is that your parents are the primary source of your biases.

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