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Sex Testing Redux

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  • Sex Testing Redux

    I see that some organization called Human Rights Watch has decided to wade into the discussion . . . way over their heads:

    World Athletics, the sport’s global governing body, targets women from countries in the global south for “abusive sex testing” based on arbitrary definitions of femininity and racial stereotypes, according to Human Rights Watch (HRW).
    “World Athletics has targeted women from the global south for decades, treating those with high testosterone as less than human,” said Mitra.
    Men face no comparable testing.
    That last sentence aptly demonstrates their cluelessness on the subject. Also, they have it backwards on the underlined part. They are MORE than human females.
    There is zero 'discrimination' going on here. There is a recognition of an unfair advantage over other women. Where is their outrage for the women who are being put at such a disadvantage?
    As with the Paralympics, the only logical conclusion is to let testosterone-gifted women compete in their own organization.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Atticus View Post
    There is zero 'discrimination' going on here.
    There is discrimination going on. Without discrimination, there wouldn't be different sport categories for men and women.

    Discrimination isn't necessarily bad. Whether it is good, bad, or necessary depends on the context and purpose of the discrimination. As long as there are separate categories for male and female athletes, sex discrimination will be necessary for that purpose.

    And as long as there are some individuals who don't readily fit into widely accepted ideas of male or female, the line has to be drawn somewhere to decide who gets to compete as female and who doesn't.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
      There is discrimination going on. Without discrimination, there wouldn't be different sport categories for men and women.
      That's 'differentiation', not discrimination. Discrimination, as we readily use it, is the "unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex." [Oxford Dictionary]

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      • #4
        Ignore 'em.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Atticus View Post
          I see that some organization called Human Rights Watch has decided to wade into the discussion . . . way over their heads:
          Unnecessarily disingenuous. If you knew nothing about them before, I'm sure you would have/could have, simply googled them, and discovered that they are as valid and important as Amnesty International, and they generally do a huge amount of detailed research into the papers they publish. Like any organisation they have their faults, but this topic is exactly the kind of thing they would look into.

          When there was a lot of discussion on here regarding athletes with DSD, I argued that this went beyond just science - and we know that even scientists disagree on this too - and was also about human rights, politics, culture and morality. In a modern world, science does not discount ethics. The debate rightly includes experts from all these fields. And, to be polite, one of the experts at World Athletics , which some of the outrageous comments they made, demonstrated their cluelessness and insensitivity, far more so than HRW.

          I think it's great that this type of organisation is calling out WA.





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          • #6
            Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
            Unnecessarily disingenuous. If you knew nothing about them before, I'm sure you would have/could have, simply googled them, and discovered that they are as valid and important as Amnesty International, and they generally do a huge amount of detailed research into the papers they publish. Like any organisation they have their faults, but this topic is exactly the kind of thing they would look into.
            Whatever their level of competence in other things, they demonstrated their ignorance in this topic with the irrelevant and inaccurate comment "Men face no comparable testing".

            Men do have their testosterone levels measured and their DNA profile taken as a routine part of the drug testing process. But because the male category is the category for unlimited natural testosterone, just like the heavyweight division in boxing is the category for unlimited bodyweight, a high measurement is not used to disqualify them from the category.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Wiederganger View Post
              I think it's great that this type of organisation is calling out WA.
              By doing a tremendous disservice to the entire gender? If you allow an intersex person, with much higher testosterone levels compete, every normal-level female is unfairly disadvantaged. It's just like a fully-abled athlete competing in the Paralympics. What's the point?

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              • #8
                On the positive side we could see Jenner in the Hept . . .

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                • #9
                  <<A groundbreaking new study on transgender athletes has found trans women retain a 12% advantage in running tests even after taking hormones for two years to suppress their testosterone. The results, researchers suggest, indicate the current International Olympic Committee guidelines may give trans women an “unfair competitive advantage” over biological women.>>

                  See link on home page

                  (and no, I'm not suggesting that Semenya is a trans athlete; related subject in the news)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gh View Post
                    <<A groundbreaking new study on transgender athletes has found trans women retain a 12% advantage in running tests even after taking hormones for two years to suppress their testosterone. The results, researchers suggest, indicate the current International Olympic Committee guidelines may give trans women an “unfair competitive advantage” over biological women.>>

                    See link on home page
                    One problem in that study, at least where IOC and World Athletics policy is concerned, is that it didn't involve elite athletes.

                    Non-elites facing a performance decline for whatever reason (including age) can train more seriously to approach or exceed what they know they used to be capable of; there's many a 40- or 50-something Masters runner who became faster than when they used to unseriously train for high school track.

                    But elite athletes are already training at or close to their limits, so they can't simply up their intensity and frequency to counteract a decline due to aging or a gender transition.

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                    • #11
                      Organizations like HRW aren't interested in logic or common sense. They appeal to people's emotions. Many of them are attorneys who have to justify their pay so they take on causes and fight for those causes even if the cause does not make sense. And they are not shy about using twisted logic if it can appeal to a segment of the public. You will never find them debating these issues in a public forum because their arguments would be destroyed.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mungo man View Post
                        attorneys who have to justify their pay so they take on causes and fight for those causes even if the cause does not make sense. And they are not shy about using twisted logic if it can appeal to a segment of the public.
                        Hmmm, there seems to be a lot of that going around. I often wonder if they care about their credibility done the line, but I guess they don't, as long as the $$$ are coming in.

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