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Mboma (18yrs) - 48.54 (withdrawn from 400 in Tokyo?

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  • proofs in the pudd'in
    replied
    Originally posted by rhizobium View Post

    You're gonna need to quote the text from the regulation that narrows it down to XY chromosomes only because I'm not seeing it.
    You misunderstood what I'm saying. The regulations don't use XY because all the specific criteria in them, that need to be filled, would never result in an XX female fulfilling them so as to cause WA to apply them. Only XY could fulfill them.

    The first three DSDs are solely male conditions - 5-ARD, 17 beta, and PAIS. The fourth would only be significant if it was an XY ovotesticular DSD as no XX ovotesticualr DSD would be considered given the other criteria. This non XX application would apply to the fifth DSD group - genetic disorders of gonadal steroidogenesis.

    Note that an XX-male SRY positive is male to different degrees given the SRY gene on one of the X chromosomes - this being the main reason for genetic males not so much the Y chromosomes per-se.

    The Q&A and CAS docs were explaining this - no XX would fall under their authority given such criteria.
    Last edited by proofs in the pudd'in; 07-13-2021, 11:14 PM.

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  • rhizobium
    replied
    Originally posted by proofs in the pudd'in View Post

    The regulations only apply to XY DSD because under those regulations no XX would ever fulfill the requirements. The Q&Aand CAS are clarifying that fact while the regulations are more specific in their expressions of the DSDs and the other two necessary conditions. Which makes me think, after reading them again, that an XX-male (SRY positive) can be under the regulations given steroidgenesis caused by the genetic condition of having the Y SRY gene on one of the X chromosomes pretty much making it male particularly if it fulfills the other two criteria under 2.2(a).
    You're gonna need to quote the text from the regulation that narrows it down to XY chromosomes only because I'm not seeing it.

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  • proofs in the pudd'in
    replied
    Originally posted by rhizobium View Post

    There's a revision of the regulation dated 1 November 2019 that also doesn't mention XY chromsomes here. So there's a disconnect between what was said in the CAS hearing and what the actual regulation says. The Q&A page on the World Athletics website also mentions XY chromosomes while the regulation does not.
    The regulations only apply to XY DSD because under those regulations no XX would ever fulfill the requirements. The Q&Aand CAS are clarifying that fact while the regulations are more specific in their expressions of the DSDs and the other two necessary conditions. Which makes me think, after reading them again, that an XX-male (SRY positive) can be under the regulations given steroidgenesis caused by the genetic condition of having the Y SRY gene on one of the X chromosomes pretty much making it male particularly if it fulfills the other two criteria under 2.2(a).
    Last edited by proofs in the pudd'in; 07-13-2021, 02:03 PM.

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  • rhizobium
    replied
    Originally posted by 18.99s View Post

    But that is from 2018, and the CAS decision was in 2019.
    There's a revision of the regulation dated 1 November 2019 that also doesn't mention XY chromsomes here. So there's a disconnect between what was said in the CAS hearing and what the actual regulation says. The Q&A page on the World Athletics website also mentions XY chromosomes while the regulation does not.

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  • proofs in the pudd'in
    replied
    Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
    So XX people with Ovotesticular DSD are women, and thus should be allowed to compete as women? Mboma and Masillingi could be among them, if what NNOC says is correct.
    People with XX Ovotesticular DSD would not be subject to the regulations only XY Ovotesticular DSDs. Of course there is XX - SRY positive DSDs which are not subject even though they can have normal masculinization because of the SRY gene on one of the X chromosomes.

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  • 18.99s
    replied
    But that is from 2018, and the CAS decision was in 2019.

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  • TN1965
    replied
    The above comes from here.

    IAAF introduces new eligibility regulations for female classification | PRESS-RELEASE | World Athletics
    Last edited by TN1965; 07-12-2021, 01:37 AM.

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  • 18.99s
    replied
    Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
    WA rule is not specific about the karyotype, and Ovotesticular DSD is listed in rule 2.2 regarding "relevant athletes."

    Screenshot - Imgur

    Sza63Lu.png
    Where did the above come from? The CAS summary of the 2019 decision said the restrictions don't apply to individuals with XX chromosomes.

    https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/us...ary__5794_.pdf

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  • TN1965
    replied
    Originally posted by 18.99s View Post
    WA wouldn't have removed them from the 400 if they're XX. The NNOC's president is making up stuff or misinterpreting it to suit his own agenda. Notice that he didn't mention that XX claim in the media release which bears his signature.
    WA rule is not specific about the karyotype, and Ovotesticular DSD is listed in rule 2.2 regarding "relevant athletes."

    Screenshot - Imgur

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  • 18.99s
    replied
    Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
    So XX people with Ovotesticular DSD are women, and thus should be allowed to compete as women? Mboma and Masillingi could be among them, if what NNOC says is correct.
    WA wouldn't have removed them from the 400 if they're XX. The NNOC's president is making up stuff or misinterpreting it to suit his own agenda. Notice that he didn't mention that XX claim in the media release which bears his signature.

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  • TN1965
    replied
    Originally posted by proofs in the pudd'in View Post

    I'd go further - they are male! Humans are highly dimorphic and the whole purpose of the organism is to differentiate into two distinct sexes for the purpose of sexual reproduction in order to have viable offspring.
    So XX people with Ovotesticular DSD are women, and thus should be allowed to compete as women? Mboma and Masillingi could be among them, if what NNOC says is correct.

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  • 18.99s
    replied
    The Namibian federation and their coach should be slammed for not detecting their conditions earlier and not quietly removing them from the 400m before their performances and publicity* blew up, like when Kenya quietly removed a couple of DSD 400m runners from their team in 2019 before the World Relays rather than waiting for WA to remove them.

    Instead the Namibian federation was pinning medal hopes on them, hoping for them to snag a medal or two before World Athletics detected them and took action.

    *publicity among track fans, not the general population.

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  • proofs in the pudd'in
    replied
    Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
    NNOC slams World Athletics over handling of Masilingi and Mboma cases (insidethegames.biz)

    Namibia National Olympic Committee (NNOC) President Abner Xoagub has described World Athletics' handling of the Beatrice Masilingi and Christine Mboma case as an "unacceptable invasion" of the two teenagers' privacy.
    They will find out soon enough if they really are XX an what condition they have. Even if they are XX-male (SRY-positive) WA does not restrict these athletes. WA chose to do their own confirmation of that XX test to see what the facts really are.

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  • proofs in the pudd'in
    replied
    Originally posted by 18.99s View Post

    Physically, with more male indicators than female, athletes affected by the DSD regulations are closer to being men with a (possible) disadvantage, not women with an advantage.



    And it needs to be done in a manner that is as objective and noninvasive as reasonably possible. T level, chromosomes, and CAIS can be detected without invasiveness or subjectivity. They shouldn't be trying to discern the degree of PAIS at the individual level, as that gets both invasive and subjective, just as they don't try to discern the degree of maturity or aging for age-group divisions -- you either meet the cutoffs for the age group or you don't; there's no attempt to assert that a 14-year-old boy should still get to compete in under-14 because he hasn't started puberty yet.
    I'd go further - they are male! Humans are highly dimorphic and the whole purpose of the organism is to differentiate into two distinct sexes for the purpose of sexual reproduction in order to have viable offspring. If there is a problem in this differentiation that is a problem that is built upon a foundation of chromosomal/genetic factors (karyotype or more specifically the SRY gene), gonadal factors (testes or ovaries), hormonal factors (T-levels and utilization), etc., etc., as the biological pathways continue downstream. What we need to recognize first is what you mentioned - these are MALES with disorders of sexual development and thus depending on the type of DSD could be just males that would not perform well as elite athletes - they are at a disadvantage because of it - just like a 16 year male who is not as physically developed as another 16 year old male would have disadvantages.

    For example: Semenya has all the characteristics being a male as a 5-ARD DSD. This confusion over the degree of utilization is understandable but someone who refuses to let it go as if it is meaningful is just either not grasping the biology or they want too hide in the complexity of it and use that to score points against WA. The reason many 5-ARD DSD people have ambiguous genitalia (underdeveloped masculinization in this area) is because the androgen receptors IN THE GENITAL TUBERCLE are insensitive, to some degree, because of the problems in the gene SRD5A2 and thus the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase type 2 is not abundant in tissues such as the testes and the tubercle which is used to convert T into DHT to drive the differentiation of the clitoris and the penis. They still can have DHT via 5-alpha-reductase type 1 in other tissues and utilize T elsewhere (DHT has no known role in the development of XX fetuses). They can check T/DHT ratios in certain tissue and do other tests. The fact that they develop testes and lack Mullerian structures shows utilization in general, they can check androgen binding in non-genital skin, etc., etc. The bottom line is these are MALES with low T or low normal T and decreased levels of DHT. Why this means they are female and allowed to compete with females is beyond me.

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  • TN1965
    replied
    NNOC slams World Athletics over handling of Masilingi and Mboma cases (insidethegames.biz)

    Namibia National Olympic Committee (NNOC) President Abner Xoagub has described World Athletics' handling of the Beatrice Masilingi and Christine Mboma case as an "unacceptable invasion" of the two teenagers' privacy.

    Leave a comment:

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