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Originally posted by DET59
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D, none of the above.
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Despite what the ignoramuses on ESPN would have you believe; Super Bowl wins is not a quarterback stat because football is a team sport and quarterbacks don't play defense. Not a single one of these clowns believes Eli Manning is a better quarterback than Dan Marino or Aaron Rodgers, not to mention Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler.Originally posted by DET59 View PostComment
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I'll politely disagree... when talking about the "greatest" in anything sporty- superbowl wins, NBA rings, World Series titles, Olympic Gold Medals, and wins in majors/Grand Slams, Tour de France yellow jerseys, etc is probably the most important stat. If a team is winning the last time the QB touches the ball in the season, well he did his job. Brady did that 9 out of 21 seasons. If you asked 500 active and ex NFL players (say between 25-45) who is the one individual you'd like to have had as your teammate in the last X number of years, TB would lead the selection. You'd have rings.Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
Yes, QB's don't play defense. The main goal of every defensive player is the opposite of every offensive player: to be on the field as little as possible. Leading the league in a defensive stats is not always a good thing; often means you team was a league leader in the "3 and done" category and punting. Defensive players love QBs who convert 3rd downs and don't fumble or throw interceptions. Defensive players love TB.
Saying who is the definitive greatest NFL player of all-time is as silly as picking T and F's greatest athlete ever (Jesse Owens : ) Too many positions, events to compare. It's easier to say "greatest" in sports like golf, tennis, etc when everybody does the same thing, or in basketball where everybody plays offense and defense .
Saying TB is the best QB ever is a pretty solid statement. I'd rather say it about Joe Montana, but Brady earned it.Comment
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Amen!!Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
Jim Plunkett is my all-time favorite QB by far. He is 8-2 in the playoffs and 2-0 in the Super Bowl with Zero interceptions.
I'd be a fool if I said I'd take him over Marino, Kenny Anderson, heck healthy Bert Jones or even Fouts: better QBs who just had less SB wins (for various reasons).
Last edited by scottmitchell74; 02-04-2023, 12:48 PM.You there, on the motorbike! Sell me one of your melons!Comment
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Your mistake here is that you have some apples (team sports) mixed in with oranges (individual sports).Originally posted by DET59 View Post
This is the first time I've ever heard of this carefully crafted stat that sounds like it was invented by Tom Brady's publicist. Not only are you counting as wins two Super Bowls that Brady lost but you conveniently omitted 2 of his 23 seasons.Originally posted by DET59 View Post
This is simply not true. No defense can excel if its offense is anemic because too many 3-and-outs will wear down a defense pretty quickly. All the great defenses throughout history (eg. 1995 Nebraska, 2011 Alabama, 2021 Georgia, 1985, Bears, 2000 Ravens, 2013 Seahawks, etc.) had been offenses that were at least good, if not great, and they usually had strong running games.Originally posted by DET59 View Post
I agree with you here.Originally posted by DET59 View Post
I have no problem with proclaiming Brady the quarterback GOAT, but I do take exception to folks whose argument starts and end with Super Bowl wins because football is a team sport. Furthermore, even among team sports, football players have less impact on the game than they do in other team sports like basketball, hockey and soccer where everyone is a two-way player. I ask you once again, was Trent Dilfer a better quarterback than Dan Marino.?Originally posted by DET59 View PostComment
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This is more of support for Jazzy's comment than a knock on Brady but, in two of "his" Super Bowl wins it was screwups by the opponent that essentially handed him a win. The infamous "why didn't they just hand it to Beastmode" game vs. the Seahawks and the meltdown of the Falcons. The Falcons meltdown came about in great fashion because the Falcons offense couldn't stay out there long enough to give the defense a chance to recover and by the end of the game it's possible that 11 of this board's members may have been able to score on them. Generally referred to as complimentary football offense, defense and STs.
Brady is the most accomplished QB ever. There are other QBs who one can claim that they are either the best or amongst the best (an equal in other words).
Lawrence Taylor was the best football player I ever saw. He affected the game about as much as a player can in my opinion.Comment
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Jazzy and NotDutra - great responses. I will say, my beloved 49ers were the second ranked defense partly because they led the league in minutes played. (While by no means a 3rd and out offense, 9ers offense was only slightly above average this past season, ranked 11th) .
I don't think it's apple and oranges to compare or rate sport/position "GOATS" in team and individual sports when it comes to the value of "winning the big one." It's just more complicated, and football and baseball (With players not all playing at the same time) are even more complicated than the sports you pointed out like basketball, hockey and soccer. When you look at the various "greatest player who never won a championship" lists ( people like Dan Marino, Frank Thomas, Reggie Miller, Jim Ryan, Colin Montgomerie etc) no one would suggest any of these athletes are the best at their sport, position or event. The subjective choices of Jordan, Brady (or Rice, or Brown, Ruth, Tiger, Jesse Owens, Federer, etc) all have the common "theme" of winning championships.
Again, thanks !
PS- Dilfer was not better- when you look at all the quarterbacks with zero or 1 Super Bowl wins the value of winning a Super Bowl vs the rest of their career is very small. Marino is by far the best QB of the Super Bowl era who never won, and probably better than or equal to all of the "Dilfers" on the list of one game winners (including Rodgers, Brees) Is Marino as good or better than the dozen QB's that have won multiple Super Bowls? I'd say he was better than 1/3 to half of of them. But never winning puts him down the QB Goat list further than his overall stats would indicate. He never won the big one. Slightly more than half of Super Bowl MVP's have been QBs, but the only players with more than one MVP are all QB's (Brady-5, Montana-3, Starr, Bradshaw, Eli 2 each). Maybe that is a more indicative stat to consider. (which would make Eli better than Peyton, both better than Pops : )Last edited by DET59; 02-04-2023, 03:01 PM.Comment
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Scroll down the page for a nice interview with Devon Allen at the Super Bowl with local media in his hometown. Nice to see a interview that gives an athlete time to answer, really sweet reply talking about his dad-
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Countering Jazzy's argument, Vince Lombardi used to say that the job of a quarterback was to lead his team to wins and titles, and because of that he considered Bart Starr (5 NFL titles / 2 Super Bowls in 2 tries) the greatest quarterback ever.
But what the hell did Lombardi know about football anyway?Comment
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That was 60 years ago. As great a coach as he was then, he wouldn't be able to handle today's game - just not in his personality. Not a criticism, just an observation. My dad hated him in the same way I 'hate' Saban - great respect, but just want him to lose!Originally posted by bambam1729 View Post
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Well if that's true then #60/14 is the Greatest...and it's not particularly close. 81% Winning and 7 for 10 in Championship games...all in 10 years after military service and winning a pro basketball championship.Originally posted by bambam1729 View Post
Last edited by scottmitchell74; 02-07-2023, 07:14 PM.You there, on the motorbike! Sell me one of your melons!Comment
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Why do you assume Lombardi wouldn't have been able to adapt to changes the way Saban has?Originally posted by Atticus View PostThat was 60 years ago. As great a coach as he was then, he wouldn't be able to handle today's game - just not in his personality. Not a criticism, just an observation. My dad hated him in the same way I 'hate' Saban - great respect, but just want him to lose!Comment
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