NFL Football

[jazzcyclist]

Countering Jazzy's argument, Vince Lombardi used to say that the job of a quarterback was to lead his team to wins and titles, and because of that he considered Bart Starr (5 NFL titles / 2 Super Bowls in 2 tries) the greatest quarterback ever.

But what the hell did Lombardi know about football anyway?

At the time of his retirement, a credible argument could have been made that Starr was the GOAT that didn't rest solely on his 5 titles. Hell, he may still be the GOAT. Consider this.

Starr was a 4-time All-Pro.
He was a 5-time NFL passer rating leader - more than Rodgers (4), Staubach (4), Manning (3), Brady (2), Montana (2) and Unitas (2).
He was an MVP.
His career playoff passer rating of 104.8 is '#2 all-time and was more than 40 points above the league average during his career, by far the greatest differential in NFL history.
Patrick Mahomes who has played in an era in which the league average is 25 points higher than it was in Starr's era barely edges him out with a career playoff rating of 106.1.

[schigh]

Amen!!


Jim Plunkett is my all-time favorite QB by far. He is 8-2 in the playoffs and 2-0 in the Super Bowl with Zero interceptions.

I'd be a fool if I said I'd take him over Marino, Kenny Anderson, heck healthy Bert Jones or even Fouts: better QBs who just had less SB wins (for various reasons).

It's more fun (or at least easier) to talk about favorites then 'the best'. Jimmy was also my favorite. May not have been the prettiest, but has showed as much heart in his life as anyone. Unfortunately, he had no protection with the Patriots and got the crap beat out of him trying to do everything himself and that spearing by Jeff Stover in 1985 was one of the dirtiest plays I ever saw. But team him with the thunder chickens at Stanford or the Raider defenses in the early 80's and you really had something. An affable guy with huge courage and heart, definitely my favorite.

[jazzcyclist]

This is more of support for Jazzy's comment than a knock on Brady but, in two of "his" Super Bowl wins it was screwups by the opponent that essentially handed him a win. The infamous "why didn't they just hand it to Beastmode" game vs. the Seahawks and the meltdown of the Falcons..

I too was one of those Monday morning quarterbacks who thought Seattle should have run it until the next morning when I heard ESPN commentators Herm Edwards, Ron Jaworski and John Gruden all say Seattle had to throw it on that play because the play would have gotten stuffed if they had tried to run it. Remember, in football, the defense goes last, meaning that the defense is allowed to make its substitutions after it sees the substitutions that the offense makes. On that play, Bill Belichick put a goal-line/jumbo defense (8 defensive linemen in the box and 3 defensive backs in man coverage) on the field to defend the spread offense Seattle put on the field. No sane coach would try to run the ball under those circumstances. The only time you ever see teams try to run against defenses like that is when they have their own jumbo package (eg. 3 tight ends, full back, etc.) on the field. However, if the Patriots had put a more balanced defense on the field like it did in the 2nd quarter when Marshawn Lynch ran for a 3-yard touchdown, Seattle might have very well run it.

By the way, that was the 145th pass play from the one-yard line in the 2014 NFL regular and post season. That was the first one that was intercepted. Also, in 2014, Marshawn Lynch had 5 rushing attempts from the one-yard line and he only scored a touchdown on one of them.

[scottmitchell74]

At the time of his retirement, a credible argument could have been made that Starr was the GOAT that didn't rest solely on his 5 titles. Hell, he may still be the GOAT. Consider this.

Starr was a 4-time All-Pro.
He was a 5-time NFL passer rating leader - more than Rodgers (4), Staubach (4), Manning (3), Brady (2), Montana (2) and Unitas (2).
He was an MVP.
His career playoff passer rating of 104.8 is Forum all-time and was more than 40 points above the league average during his career, by far the greatest differential in NFL history.
Patrick Mahomes who has played in an era in which the league average is 25 points higher than it was in Starr's era barely edges him out with a career playoff rating of 106.1.

Very strong case.

[DET59]

Otto Graham

Does anyone else have a national title in both professional basketball and football?

Only knock on Otto was he only played 5 season in the "true" NFL" as his first 5 pro season were with the post-war Browns of the alternative league, the All-America Football Conference (from which 3 teams eventually merged into the NFL, including Otto and the Browns he was quarterbacking)

[Davidokun]

Does anyone else have a national title in both professional basketball and football?

No, but Gene Conley played on championship teams in professional baseball and basketball:

MLB
1957 Milwaukee Braves

NBA
1958-59 Boston Celtics
1959-60 Celtics
1960-61 Celtics

Only knock on Otto was he only played 5 season in the "true" NFL" as his first 5 pro season were with the post-war Browns of the alternative league, the All-America Football Conference (from which 3 teams eventually merged into the NFL, including Otto and the Browns he was quarterbacking)

Four years in the AAFC, 1946-49, and then six years in the NFL, 1950-55. Quarterbacked by Graham, the Browns played in the championship game all ten years:

AAFC
1946: New York Yankees 9, Cleveland Browns 14
1947: Browns 14, Yankees 3
1948: Buffalo Bills 7, Browns 49
1949: San Francisco 49ers 7, Browns 21

NFL
1950: Los Angeles Rams 28, Browns 30
1951: Browns 17, Rams 24
1952: Detroit Lions 17, Browns 7
1953: Browns 16, Lions 17
1954: Lions 10, Browns 56
1955: Browns 38, Rams 14

4-0 in AAFC championship games; 3-3 in NFL championship games.

[bambam1729]

One the subject of the QB GOAT - this story sheds a lot of light on Joe Montana - https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...ead-super-bowl

I'll warn you - its a long story - you'll need at least a half hour, maybe more, to read it. But its very good.

[jazzcyclist]

For those who believe that Super Bowl wins are the ultimate measuring stick for determining the greatness of a quarterback, consider this:

In 2004, the best season of Peyton Manning's career, one of his 5 MVP seasons and one of the top 5 seasons of all-times statistically, he failed to win a Super Bowl. Furthermore, he failed to win a Super Bowl in any of his other 4 MVP seasons. However, in 2015, the worst season of Manning's career in which he finished second to last in passing, he did win a Super Bowl.

In 2007, the best season of Tom Brady's career, one of his 3 MVP seasons and one of the top 10 seasons of all-times statistically, he failed to win a Super Bowl. Furthermore, he failed to win a Super Bowl in any of his other 2 MVP seasons. However, in 5 of the 7 seasons that he won a Super Bowl, he finished outside the top 5 in passing.

In 2011, the best season of Aaron Rodger's career, one of his 4 MVP seasons and one of the top 5 seasons of all-times statistically, he failed to win a Super Bowl. Furthermore, he failed to win a Super Bowl in any of his other 3 MVP seasons.

John Elway also failed to win a Super Bowl in his only MVP season (1987) or the best season of his career statistically (1993).

Could it be that Tom Brady's greatest attribute was his willingness to leave money on the table so that he could be surrounded by great teammates? After all, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler have all won Super Bowls and Eli Manning has won 2 of them despite being a mediocre quarterback his whole career.

[scottmitchell74]

For those who believe that Super Bowl wins are the ultimate measuring stick for determining the greatness of a quarterback, consider this:

In 2004, the best season of Peyton Manning's career, one of his 5 MVP seasons and one of the top 5 seasons of all-times statistically, he failed to win a Super Bowl. Furthermore, he failed to win a Super Bowl in any of his other 4 MVP seasons. However, in 2015, the worst season of Manning's career in which he finished second to last in passing, he did win a Super Bowl.

In 2007, the best season of Tom Brady's career, one of his 3 MVP seasons and one of the top 10 seasons of all-times statistically, he failed to win a Super Bowl. Furthermore, he failed to win a Super Bowl in any of his other 2 MVP seasons. However, in 5 of the 7 seasons that he won a Super Bowl, he finished outside the top 5 in passing.

In 2011, the best season of Aaron Rodger's career, one of his 4 MVP seasons and one of the top 5 seasons of all-times statistically, he failed to win a Super Bowl. Furthermore, he failed to win a Super Bowl in any of his other 3 MVP seasons.

John Elway also failed to win a Super Bowl in his only MVP season (1987) or the best season of his career statistically (1993).

Could it be that Tom Brady's greatest attribute was his willingness to leave money on the table so that he could be surrounded by great teammates? After all, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler have all won Super Bowls and Eli Manning has won 2 of them despite being a mediocre quarterback his whole career.

Almost 100%!

I've seen this broken down, just can't remember where: the typical collapse when the QB gets his Big Contract.

[jazzcyclist]

Almost 100%!

I've seen this broken down, just can't remember where: the typical collapse when the QB gets his Big Contract.

The last quarterback who won a Super Bowl in a year that he won the MVP was Kurt Warner in 1999 when he made $250,000 as an undrafted free agent. There have been 20 MVP quarterbacks since then who have come up short.

[bad hammy]

It's not a huge surprise that it takes more than the most valuable player in the league (a beauty contest, by the way) to win a Super Bowl.

[jazzcyclist]

It's not a huge surprise that it takes more than the most valuable player in the league (a beauty contest, by the way) to win a Super Bowl.

Yep. It's a lot different in the NBA where the MVP is one of only 5 players on the court and plays both offense and defense. Jordan won the title in 4 of his 5 MVP seasons. Bird won it in 2 of his 3 MVP seasons and Lebron 2 of 4,

[bad hammy]

One the subject of the QB GOAT - this story sheds a lot of light on Joe Montana - https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...ead-super-bowl

I'll warn you - its a long story - you'll need at least a half hour, maybe more, to read it. But its very good.

Thanks for finding & posting this, Bam. An excellent long must-read for any aging 49er fan . . .

[DET59]

Eagles re-sign Devon Allen for 23-24. After getting bonus and rookie contract (then "cut" and put on practice squad wages), Allen will make at least the second year minimum of $480k

Will this early signing change his hurdle plans thus season?

[player]

Eagles re-sign Devon Allen for 23-24. After getting bonus and rookie contract (then "cut" and put on practice squad wages), Allen will make at least the second year minimum of $480k

Will this early signing change his hurdle plans thus season?

The reserve/futures contract Allen signed creates no real monetary obligation on the part of the Eagles and doesn't mean he will get $480k.

Allen can be released by the Eagles at any time between now and the start of the regular season in September and they won't owe him anything, as long as he doesn't get hurt on the job. If he achieves the ultimate goal of playing in a regular season game, he will be paid at a rate of $750k per season, which is minimum. If he gets put on the practice squad again, he will be paid at a rate in the $200-300k/season range.

The $480k figure you mention is on a schedule that, as a practical matter, applies to players placed on injured reserve. That is a designation NFL teams use for injured players they value enough to want to maintain their contractual control over. In the case of a marginal player like Allen, if he gets hurt on the practice field or in a game, he will likely be released with an injury settlement.