The 60's!

[Texas]

Why did everything seem to take off in the 60's? The AFL came into existence. Pro rasslin' was never better. Then there's the music. How can ya beat Jimi Hendrix, The Stones,The Doors,The Beatles, Janis? Jim Brown was "da man" in the NFL. Cassius Clay was on the boxing scene. We saw the first sub 10.00, 20.00 and 44.00. We saw the great Bob Hayes and the great Tommie Smith.We had the TV westerns! Was there ever a decade that saw sooooo many changes and monumental moments?

When I talk them old blues, there's pre Muddy Waters and post Muddy Waters, or 1941, the year he was first recorded (right there on his front porch at the Stovall Plantation). He changed the genre. Not unlike Jim Brown, Cassius Clay, Bob Hayes and The Beatles. There was before and after Bob Hayes. Yes Hayes would be competitive today, especially at 28 years of age. Remember he was only 21 in 1964. One thing about all those pre pro track athletes. We never did get to see them at 30. They had to get a real job. I will say if they could have stayed longer....????

[tafnut]

At the risk of playing in the street too long, why ask questions that you already have the answer to, and will not accept any other explanations than the ones you have already pre-conceived? I realize that you just enjoy arguing, and 'showing off' (sic) your knowledge, but doesn't it seem rather masochistic to keep bringing all the negative attention to yourself?

[Texas]

At the risk of playing in the street too long, why ask questions that you already have the answer to, and will not accept any other explanations than the ones you have already pre-conceived? I realize that you just enjoy arguing, and 'showing off' (sic) your knowledge, but doesn't it seem rather masochistic to keep bringing all the negative attention to yourself?

Let's see..hmmm? I was eating popcorn and drinking a Pepsi when I thought..."oh no the US is way behind"...when Bullet Bob got the stick in Tokyo in 64. I was there in Fresno the night Tommie Smith ran down New Mexico's Bernie Rivers on the anchor of a 4x2. I saw OJ play for San Francisco City. Was there ever a smoother 400 ran than the one Henry Carr ran on his Tokyo 4x4 anchor? Hard to believe the Browns had Bobby Mitchell AND Jimmy Brown in the same backfield....huh?

I think I can hang with you guys....hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

[tafnut]

I think I can hang with you guys....hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

Seeing these things and UNDERSTANDING what you saw are two entirely different things. 'Jon' has far less practical experience in the sport than the rest of us (but he's catching up at hyperspeed, as a writer for AW), but he understands it better than you or I. I say again, it's all about context, and you show a remarkable inability to understand its significance. I would, on the other hand, love to sit next to you at a big meet, cuz I bet you're one mean machine as a color commentator ("yep, this reminds of that steel-grey afternoon in '66 when Tommie S came smoking round the last bend on San Jose State's 4x4, and gunned the entire field in his last 3 strides. Those were the days!").

[Texas]

I think I can hang with you guys....hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

Seeing these things and UNDERSTANDING what you saw are two entirely different things. 'Jon' has far less practical experience in the sport than the rest of us (but he's catching up at hyperspeed, as a writer for AW), but he understands it better than you or I. I say again, it's all about context, and you show a remarkable inability to understand its significance. I would, on the other hand, love to sit next to you at a big meet, cuz I bet you're one mean machine as a color commentator ("yep, this reminds of that steel-grey afternoon in '66 when Tommie S came smoking round the last bend on San Jose State's 4x4, and gunned the entire field in his last 3 strides. Those were the days!").

What's there to really UNDERSTAND? I need to...what? This stuff is not all that deep.....honest!

Look at Tommie in that picture. He's 6-3 and around 185 pounds. He can run 9.3/10.1/19.83 and 44.5. He ran the first ever sub 44.0 relay leg. Ok go back in time and find me another Tommie Smith.

Ok ok...Herb McKenley. Now go back further.

[tafnut]

What's there to really UNDERSTAND? I need to...what? This stuff is not all that deep.....honest!

If you only look at numbers, you're absolutely right! But . . . is it conceivable that Athlete A does not put up the same numbers as Athlete B, but, because of circumstances, was actually BETTER?!

That, my dear, is the message of history - do not compare people across eras only looking at the numbers. Consider the CONTEXT. Mr. Thorpe (f'rinstance) was actually much better than what his numbers tell us today. My Jimmy Brown analogy is clearer. His numbers (even his averages) will be surpassed MANY times, but do you think all the people who surpass his numbers are really better?

[Texas]

What's there to really UNDERSTAND? I need to...what? This stuff is not all that deep.....honest!

If you only look at numbers, you're absolutely right! But . . . is it conceivable that Athlete A does not put up the same numbers as Athlete B, but, because of circumstances, was actually BETTER?!

That, my dear, is the message of history - do not compare people across eras only looking at the numbers. Consider the CONTEXT. Mr. Thorpe (f'rinstance) was actually much better than what his numbers tell us today. My Jimmy Brown analogy is clearer. His numbers (even his averages) will be surpassed MANY times, but do you think all the people who surpass his numbers are really better?

It simply doesn't work that way.

Let's look at Jimmy Brown. He was 6-2 228 pounds at a time when defensive tackles were 240 pounds. Linebackers weren't as big as he was. We also had white defensive backs in his day. So here's this 228 pounder dealing with guys not much bigger than he is and if he gets by them he has to now out run white dbs. I saw Jim Brown play many many times. One of my fav trivia questions has always been...."who was his backup?"

Anyway...

You have to look at the competition an athlete excelled against. Let's take LaDainian Tomlinson or Larry Johnson or Shaun Alexander and put them on Soldier Field 1963. Ever heard of Lenny Lyles? He was considered the NFL's fastest player in Brown's day. He ran a 9.5 at Louisville. Where would that 9.5 get him today?

Yes Jim Brown "accomplished" more than any other running back. His lifetime avg of 5.6 is amazing. We leave him in the 60's however.

I will say this.....

I do see Gale Sayers much like Bob Hayes. He could play 100 years from now. Yes there are those special few.

[SQUACKEE]

I grew up with John F. Kennedy, The Beatles, and Cassius Clay. Lets just say things have gone downhill.

[mojo]

I grew up with John F. Kennedy, The Beatles, and Cassius Clay. Lets just say things have gone downhill.

You forgot to mention the drugs .


Love that picture. Very cool.

[dukehjsteve]

[quote="Texas
Ever heard of Lenny Lyles? He was considered the NFL's fastest player in Brown's day. He ran a 9.5 at Maryland. Where would that 9.5 get him today?

Another mistake from "Mr. Perfect, I Am Never Wrong. "

Lenny Lyles went to Louisville. He could never have gone to Maryland back then, sadly, because he was an African American.

[Texas]

[quote=dukehjsteve][quote="Texas
Ever heard of Lenny Lyles? He was considered the NFL's fastest player in Brown's day. He ran a 9.5 at Maryland. Where would that 9.5 get him today?

Another mistake from "Mr. Perfect, I Am Never Wrong. "

Lenny Lyles went to Louisville. He could never have gone to Maryland back then, sadly, because he was an African American.[/quote]

Go to my edit, notice the time. Yes it hit me that it was Louisville 'before" you posted. Now tell me who was considered the first "fastest man" in the AFL?

[dukehjsteve]

no problema, senor Brutal/Tejas, I believe you ! Hey, we all make mistakes, even me.

[paulthefan]

It simply doesn't work that way.

.. except it does

Let's look at Jimmy Brown. He was 6-2 228 pounds at a time when defensive tackles were 240 pounds. Linebackers weren't as big as he was. We also had white defensive backs in his day. So here's this 228 pounder dealing with guys not much bigger than he is and if he gets by them he has to now out run white dbs. I saw Jim Brown play many many times. ......
You have to look at the competition an athlete excelled against. Let's take LaDainian Tomlinson or Larry Johnson or Shaun Alexander and put them on Soldier Field 1963. Ever heard of Lenny Lyles? He was considered the NFL's fastest player in Brown's day. He ran a 9.5 at Louisville. Where would that 9.5 get him today?

9.5 on dirt in the early 60s would make Lyles today one of the faster athletes in the NFL.. if you cant see that you are just another bean counter....MORE IMPORTANTLY...and for the umpteenth time and only for those that are reading your swill, if you put Tomlinson, Johnson or Alexander back in Soldiers Field in 1963 do you really think they will be as fast and quick and fit as they are today.. if you say yes than you have not grasped in the years you have been here ONE single truth about understanding the history of ANY sport... you are just another bean counter.

I do see Gale Sayers much like Bob Hayes. He could play 100 years from now. Yes there are those special few.

but bean counter why ? Bob was just a 9.2 guy and Sayers, probably a 9.4 guy at best.


by the way some of think the Beatles were just OK, that Muhammad Ali was great but not the greatest.

[cullman]

Now tell me who was considered the first "fastest man" in the AFL?

Paul Lowe or Elbert "Wheels" Debenion?

[deca-pat]

Is "Texas" the former "Brutal"? Kinda sound alike