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Originally posted by tafnut
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That sounds pretty reasonable to me.phsstt! -
... and making certain species extinct in the process. I wonder how much the weather and climate changes have affected wildlife in search of shelter and food.Comment
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Animal species come and go all the time, with or without man's 'help'. This one, however, was a pretty spectacular example of man's abilities:Originally posted by EPelle
:shock:Originally posted by WikipediaComment
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This is fairly bizarre but I guess it has happened before. An avalanche in WNY:
http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.a ... ryid=44546
Everyone was whining about the lack of snow and cold in these parts and now they are compliaing because we are getting too much of a good thing.
http://tinyurl.com/yrpteg
Difficult to please baby boomers. That's why all the booze and drugs.Comment
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the above is quite reasonable, very and represents in a nutshell standard environmental green thinking.Originally posted by tafnut
for sure pollution is bad, smog is bad, killing the fish in the ocean is bad, destroying our environment is bad, wasting non-renewable resources is bad.
bad bad bad. yes, yes, yes.
i hate concrete, i hate factories, i hate over population.
i think everyone should practice birth control except for me and my clan (some of them anyway), of course.....
so it looks like i'm contradicting myself here.
a bit at least.
the hypothesis i'm putting forward is that the byproduct of burning fossil fuels may be a positive side effect - warming - and is worth consideration.
if this cooling effect is real and profound maybe we'll be looking at some artificial means of warming the planet.
i'm wondering if we can burn fossil fuels in a clean way, it is not such a bad thing and that non-renewable resources such (oil and gas) may last a lot longer than we think. once nonrenewable resources become scarce, there seem to be a great variety of energy sources to tap into, wind, hydro, thermal, fission and fusion.
in any event, given the ice age cycle, co2 and methane production might not make that much of a dent in the big picture.
overall man does tend to have a nasty effect on the environment, but nature really delivers the ko punch.... mass extinction events, dinosaurs, large mammals, many past civilizations?
science, cooperation and technology practiced with mature wisdom will be a key to our long term survival.
practicing an ill conceived mixture of warped poli-science will lead to a massive waste of time at best.Comment
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figo, you express our mutual opinion so much more eloquently than I.
I hereby appoint you as my proxy and I am going back to working on my taxes.. or a nap.. whichever comes first.Comment
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I see we are in complete 100% agreementOriginally posted by figo
so would it be a BAD thing to cool our ramjets and consider how NOT to have this 'nasty effect'?
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02 ... index.html
global warming escalates downward...
Science and Space News - CNN - Report links global warming to humans
The phrase "very likely" translates to a more than 90 percent certainty that global warming is caused by man.
What that means in layman's language is "we have this nailed," said top U.S. climate scientist Jerry Mahlman, who originated the percentage system.
It marked an escalation from the panel's last report in 2001, which said warming was "likely" caused by human activity. There had been speculation that the participants might try to up the ante to "virtually certain" man causes global warming, which translates to 99 percent chance.
On sea levels, the report projects rises of 7-23 inches by the end of the century. That could be augmented by an additional 4-8 inches if recent surprising polar ice sheet melt continues. (Watch how rising sea levels could affect San Francisco Video)
The 2001 report projected a sea level rise of up to 35 inches.
ok, we have a 90 percent chance they know the cause of global warming but maybe 99 percent certain at any moment which is a 9% increase which is impressive in itself. the IQ of it all.
in the article they "escalate" from 2001 a rise in sea level from 35 inches down to 7-23 inches. which is a drop roughly of 500% (35/7) to 35/23 (50%) . which could be augmented by 4-8 inches...... to be on the safe side???
anyone here see how this percentage system adds up?
how about getting our scientist friends to play russian roulette, i mean it's a 1/6 chance, versus 1/10, our scientist would be very likely certain to live through the first round and almost quite very likely virtually certain to live past a few rounds.
hell a whole team of percentage scientists could play russian roulette without any very likely risk of death.....but if someone does eat the bullet, they could use the augmentation factor to show that he's not actually dead, leading to the following probable (90%+) conversation......
C: my lad. I wish to complain about this scientist what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
O: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian..What's,uh...What's wrong with him?
C: I'll tell you what's wrong with him, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with him!
O: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
C: Look, matey, I know a dead scientist when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
O: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable researcher, the Norwegian , idn'e, ay? Beautiful suit!
C: The suit don't enter into it. He's stone dead.
O: Nononono, no, no! 'E's resting!
C: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up!
'Ello, Mister Doctor Scientist! I've got a lovely fresh cuttle fish for you if you show
O: There, he moved!
C: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the doc!
O: I never!!
C: Yes, you did!
O: I never, never did anything...
C: (yelling and hitting the doc repeatedly) 'ELLO DOCTOR!!!!!
Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock alarm call!
(Takes scientist out of the doc and thumps his head on the counter. Throws him up in the air and watches him plummet to the floor.)
C: Now that's what I call a dead scientist.
O: No, no.....No, 'e's stunned!
C: STUNNED?!?
O: Yeah! You stunned him, just as he was wakin' up! Norwegians stun easily, major.
C: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That scientist is definitely deceased, and when I purchased him not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that his total lack of movement was due to him bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
O: Well, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.
C: PININ' for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got 'im home?
O: The Norwegian prefers kippin' on his's back! Remarkable researcher, id'nit, squire? Lovely suit!
C: Look, I took the liberty of examining that scientist when I got him home, and I discovered the only reason that he had been sitting on his perch in the first place was that he'd had been NAILED there.
(pause)
O: Well, o'course he was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that researcher down, he would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent 'em apart with its beak, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
C: "VOOM"?!? Mate, this researcher wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it! 'E's bleedin' demised!
O: No no! 'E's pining!
C: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This scientist is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies!
'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig!
'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!
THIS IS AN EX-SCIENTIST!!
(pause)
O: Well, I'd better replace it, then.
(he takes a quick peek behind the counter)
O: Sorry squire, I've had a look 'round the back of the shop, and uh, we're right out of scientists.
C: I see. I see, I get the picture.
O: I got a slug.
(pause)
C: (sweet as sugar) Pray, does it talk?
O: Nnnnot really.
C: WELL IT'S HARDLY A BLOODY REPLACEMENT, IS IT?!!???!!?
O: Look, if you go to my brother's university in Bolton, he'll replace the scientist for you.
C: Bolton, eh? Very well.
The customer leaves.
The customer enters the same university. The owner is putting on a false moustache.
C: This is Bolton, is it?
O: (with a fake mustache) No, it's Ipswitch.
C: (looking at the camera) That's inter-city rail for you.
The customer goes to the train station.
He addresses a man standing behind a desk marked "Complaints".
C: I wish to complain, British-Railways Person.
Attendant: I DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS JOB, YOU KNOW!!!
C: I beg your pardon...?
A: I'm a qualified brain surgeon! I only do this job because I like being my own boss!
C: Excuse me, this is irrelevant, isn't it?
A: Yeah, well it's not easy to pad these python files out to 200 lines, you know.
C: Well, I wish to complain. I got on the Bolton train and found myself deposited here in Ipswitch.
A: No, this is Bolton.
C: (to the camera) The university man's brother was lying!!
A: Can't blame British Rail for that.
C: In that case, I shall return to the university!
He does.
C: I understand this IS Bolton.
O: (still with the fake mustache) Yes?
C: You told me it was Ipswitch!
O: ...It was a pun.
C: (pause) A PUN?!?
O: No, no...not a pun...What's that thing that spells the same backwards as forwards?
C: (Long pause) A palindrome...?
O: Yeah, that's it!
C: It's not a palindrome! The palindrome of "Bolton" would be "Notlob"!! It don't work!!
O: Well, what do you want?
C: I'm not prepared to pursue my line of inquiry any longer as I think this is getting too silly!
Sergeant-Major: Quite agree, quite agree, too silly, far too silly...Comment
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"non-consensus" among scientists about global warming
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/f...59d605&rfp=dta
Kyoto is pointless, say 60 leading scientists
4 Apr 2006 - In an open letter to Canada 's new Conservative prime minister,
Stephen Harper, more than 60 leading international climate change experts have
asked him to review the global warming policies he inherited from his center-left
predecessor.
"Much of the billions of dollars earmarked for implementation of the protocol in
Canada will be squandered without a proper assessment of recent developments in
climate science," they wrote in the Canadian Financial Post last week.
There is no consensus among climate scientists on the relative importance of the
various causes of global climate change, they wrote. Study of global climate
change is an "emerging science."
"'Climate change is real' is a meaningless phrase used repeatedly by activists to
convince the public that a climate catastrophe is looming and humanity is the cause.
Neither of these fears is justified.
"Global climate changes all the time due to natural causes and the human impact
still remains impossible to distinguish from this natural 'noise'."
The list of brave signatories (below) looks like a list of “Who’s Who” of the
world’s scientists.
Dr. Ian D. Clark, professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology,
Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa
Dr. Tad Murty, former senior research scientist, Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans,
former director of Australia's National Tidal Facility and professor of earth
sciences, Flinders University, Adelaide; currently adjunct professor,
Departments of Civil Engineering and Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa
Dr. R. Timothy Patterson, professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences (paleoclimatology),
Carleton University , Ottawa
Dr. Fred Michel, director, Institute of Environmental Science and associate
professor, Dept. of Earth Sciences, Carleton University , Ottawa
Dr. Madhav Khandekar, former research scientist, Environment Canada.
Member of editorial board of Climate Research and Natural Hazards
Dr. Paul Copper, FRSC, professor emeritus, Dept. of Earth Sciences,
Laurentian University, Sudbury, Ont.
Dr. Ross McKitrick, associate professor, Dept. of Economics, University of Guelph , Ont.
Dr. Tim Ball, former professor of climatology, University of Winnipeg ; environmental consultant
Dr. Andreas Prokoph, adjunct professor of earth sciences, University of Ottawa ;
consultant in statistics and geology
Mr. David Nowell, M.Sc. (Meteorology), fellow of the Royal Meteorological
Society, Canadian member and past chairman of the NATO Meteorological
Group, Ottawa
Dr. Christopher Essex, professor of applied mathematics and associate director of
the Program in Theoretical Physics, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.
Dr. Gordon E. Swaters, professor of applied mathematics, Dept. of Mathematical
Sciences, and member, Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Research Group, University
of Alberta
Dr. L. Graham Smith, associate professor, Dept. of Geography, University of Western Ontario, London, Ont.
Dr. G. Cornelis van Kooten, professor and Canada Research Chair in
environmental studies and climate change, Dept. of Economics, University
of Victoria
Dr. Petr Chylek, adjunct professor, Dept. of Physics and Atmospheric Science, Dalhousie University , Halifax
Dr./Cdr. M. R. Morgan, FRMS, climate consultant, former meteorology advisor
to the World Meteorological Organization. Previously research scientist in
climatology at University of Exeter , U.K.
Dr. Keith D. Hage, climate consultant and professor emeritus of Meteorology, University of Alberta
Dr. David E. Wojick, P.Eng., energy consultant, Star Tannery, Va. , and Sioux
Lookout, Ont.
Rob Scagel, M.Sc., forest microclimate specialist, principal consultant,
Pacific Phytometric Consultants, Surrey , B.C.
Dr. Douglas Leahey, meteorologist and air-quality consultant, Calgary
Paavo Siitam, M.Sc., agronomist, chemist, Cobourg, Ont.
Dr. Chris de Freitas, climate scientist, associate professor, The University of Auckland, N.Z.
Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Alfred P. Sloan professor of meteorology, Dept. of Earth,
Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Dr. Freeman J. Dyson, emeritus professor of physics, Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton , N.J.
Mr. George Taylor, Dept. of Meteorology , Oregon State University; Oregon
State climatologist; past president, American Association of State Climatologists
Dr. Ian Plimer, professor of geology, School of Earth and Environmental Sciences,
University of Adelaide; emeritus professor of earth sciences, University of
Melbourne, Australia
Dr. R.M. Carter, professor, Marine Geophysical Laboratory, James Cook University , Townsville , Australia
Mr. William Kininmonth, Australasian Climate Research, former Head National
Climate Centre, Australian Bureau of Meteorology; former Australian delegate to
World Meteorological Organization Commission for Climatology, Scientific and
Technical Review
Dr. Hendrik Tennekes, former director of research, Royal Netherlands
Meteorological Institute Dr. Gerrit J. van der Lingen, geologist/paleoclimatologist,
Climate Change Consultant, Geoscience Research and Investigations, New
Zealand
Dr. Patrick J. Michaels, professor of environmental sciences, University of Virginia
Dr. Nils-Axel Morner, emeritus professor of paleogeophysics & geodynamics, Stockholm University , Stockholm , Sweden
Dr. Gary D. Sharp, Center for Climate/Ocean Resources Study, Salinas , Calif.
Dr. Roy W. Spencer, principal research scientist, Earth System Science Center ,
The University of Alabama, Huntsville
Dr. Al Pekarek, associate professor of geology, Earth and Atmospheric Sciences
Dept., St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, Minn.
Dr. Marcel Leroux, professor emeritus of climatology, University of Lyon , France ;
former director of Laboratory of Climatology, Risks and Environment, CNRS
Dr. Paul Reiter, professor, Institut Pasteur, Unit of Insects and Infectious Diseases,
Paris , France . Expert reviewer, IPCC Working group II, chapter 8 (human health)
Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski, physicist and chairman, Scientific Council of Central
Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw , Poland
Dr. Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, reader, Dept. of Geography, University of Hull ,
U.K. ; editor, Energy & Environment
Dr. Hans H.J. Labohm, former advisor to the executive board, Clingendael
Institute (The Netherlands Institute of International Relations) and an economist
who has focused on climate change
Dr. Lee C. Gerhard, senior scientist emeritus, University of Kansas , past director
and state geologist, Kansas Geological Survey
Dr. Asmunn Moene, past head of the Forecasting Centre, Meteorological Institute, Norway
Dr. August H. Auer, past professor of atmospheric science, University of
Wyoming ; previously chief meteorologist, Meteorological Service (MetService)
of New Zealand
Dr. Vincent Gray, expert reviewer for the IPCC and author of The Greenhouse
Delusion: A Critique of 'Climate Change 2001,' Wellington , N.Z.
Dr. Howard Hayden, emeritus professor of physics, University of Connecticut
Dr Benny Peiser, professor of social anthropology, Faculty of Science,
Liverpool John Moores University , U.K.
Dr. Jack Barrett, chemist and spectroscopist, formerly with Imperial College
London, U.K.
Dr. William J.R. Alexander, professor emeritus, Dept. of Civil and Biosystems
Engineering, University of Pretoria , South Africa . Member, United Nations
Scientific and Technical Committee on Natural Disasters, 1994-2000
Dr. S. Fred Singer, professor emeritus of environmental sciences, University of
Virginia ; former director, U.S. Weather Satellite Service
Dr. Harry N.A. Priem, emeritus professor of planetary geology and isotope
geophysics, Utrecht University; former director of the Netherlands Institute for
Isotope Geosciences; past president of the Royal Netherlands Geological &
Mining Society
Dr. Robert H. Essenhigh, E.G. Bailey professor of energy conversion, Dept.
of Mechanical Engineering, The Ohio State University
Dr. Sallie Baliunas, astrophysicist and climate researcher, Boston , Mass.
Douglas Hoyt, senior scientist at Raytheon (retired) and co-author of the book
The Role of the Sun in Climate Change; previously with NCAR, NOAA,
and the World Radiation Center, Davos, Switzerland
Dipl.-Ing. Peter Dietze, independent energy advisor and scientific climate and
carbon modeller, official IPCC reviewer, Bavaria , Germany
Dr. Boris Winterhalter, senior marine researcher (retired), Geological Survey
of Finland, former professor in marine geology, University of Helsinki , Finland
Dr. Wibjorn Karlen, emeritus professor, Dept. of Physical Geography and
Quaternary Geology, Stockholm University , Sweden
Dr. Hugh W. Ellsaesser, physicist/meteorologist, previously with the Lawrence
Livermore National Laboratory, Calif. ; atmospheric consultant.
Dr. Art Robinson, founder, Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, Cave Junction, Ore.
Dr. Arthur Rorsch, emeritus professor of molecular genetics, Leiden University,
The Netherlands; past board member, Netherlands organization for applied
research (TNO) in environmental, food and public health
Dr. Alister McFarquhar, Downing College , Cambridge , U.K. ; international
economist
Dr. Richard S. Courtney, climate and atmospheric science consultant, IPCC expert reviewer, U.K.Comment
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Massive underwater volcanic eruptions may cause arctic ice to melt
http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrati...718/index.html
Underwater volcanic activity in the Arctic Ocean
far stronger than anyone ever imagined!
German-American researchers have discovered more hydrothermal activity at the Gakkel Ridge in the Arctic Ocean than anyone ever imagined.
"The Gakkel ridge is a gigantic volcanic mountain chain stretching beneath the Arctic Ocean. With its deep valleys 5,500 meters beneath the sea surface and its 5,000 meter- high summits, Gakkel ridge is far mightier than the Alps."
Two research icebreakers, the "USCGC Healy" from USA and the German "PFS Polarstern," recently joined forces in the international expedition AMORE (Arctic Mid-Ocean Ridge Expedition). In attendance were scientists from the Max Planck Institute for Chemistry and other international institutions.
The scientists had expected that the Gakkel ridge would exhibit "anemic" magmatism. Instead, they found "surprisingly strong magmatic activity in the West and the East of the ridge and one of the strongest hydrothermal activities ever seen at mid-ocean ridges."
"The Gakkel ridge extends about 1800 kilometers beneath the Arctic Ocean from north of Greenland to Siberia, and is the northernmost portion of the mid-ocean ridge system."
To their surprise, the researchers found high levels of volcanic activity. Indeed, magmatism was "dramatically" higher than expected.
Hydrothermal hot springs on the seafloor were also far more abundant than predicted. "We expected this to be a hydrothermally dead ridge, and almost every time our water measurement instrument came up, they showed evidence of hydrothermal activity, and once we even 'saw' an active hot spring on the sea floor," said Dr. Jonathan Snow, the leader of the research group from the Max Planck Institute.
No wonder the ice is melting!
(From the Max Planck Society, 18 July 2003, The Fiery Face of the Arctic Deep.)
Hydrothermal vents pumping 500-degree water into Arctic Ocean
– Aug 20, 2005 - Researchers have discovered the northernmost hydrothermal
vents in the world along the Mohns Ridge in the Arctic Ocean . "I've seen a lot of
hydrothermal systems all over the world's oceans," said Adam Schultz, a
geophysicist from Oregon State University ’s College of Oceanic and Atmospheric
Sciences," and these Arctic fields are spectacular."
"We found two large high-temperature fields and as we explored them, we would
come upon a large mound of chimneys with superheated water jetting out of them,"
Schultz said. "Then in the distance, we'd see another mound and then beyond that,
another one, and so on." Temperatures in one field reached as high as 260 degrees C (500F). Temperatures may have approached 300C (572F) in the second field. "
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0819123850.htmComment
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Thank you, figo for researching and articulating all this good information. I have the same conclusions stored in my mental data bank , without remembering the details. I am too old, tired and lazy to look it up but am happy to add a resounding Amen and hold your coat..Comment
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many thanks for the kind thanks.Originally posted by lonewolfComment
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I also appreciate all the time and effort you've put into this, figo, and I'm still on the fence as to what is real or imagined in re: GlobWarm, but nothing you have posted addresses what I consider the pressing issue confronting us. Shouldn't we be more Earth-friendly right now??!! As you you yourself have noted, man is treating Mother Nature rather shabbily. If that is true (and we all seem to be in agreement that it IS), shouldn't we ALL be environmentally-aware conservationists? Shouldn't we be trying to lower emissions, fossil fuel uses, and pollution-causing industries? We've only got this one planet to play with, so using it as our own personal cat box seems very counter-productive to own our best interests!Comment
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You will get no argument from me, tafnut, that perhaps we "should" do the things you mention. They will certainly do no harm nor do I think they will make an ultimate difference. My point is, IMO, the doomsday scenario is overdone and, at least partially, driven by personal and political agendas.
I am off now on this 5 F globally warmed February morning to officiate the first indoor track meet of the season at Univ Okla.Comment
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14 killed in Florida today.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070202/ap_ ... re_weather
Does man-made weather change have any significant bearing on tornadoes?Comment
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