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  • Daisy
    replied
    Originally posted by eldrick
    so according to this guy, anyone adopting this posture is a doper rather than just doing some loosening up ?!?!
    Athletes loosen up before a drug test? :lol:

    How about this scenario; the police pull someone whom they suspect are over the limit. Driver is seen doing (insert one of many myths that help driver avoid positive test).

    Would said behaviour make you more or less suspicious that this driver was aware of potential ways to decrease the likelihood of a positive test?

    Leave a comment:


  • bijanc
    replied
    HGH

    Daisy:

    Thanks for the clarification.

    BCB

    Leave a comment:


  • EPelle
    replied
    There:s more backbone to it than the snippet dropped there.

    Here are some WADA minutes on the issue with athlete feelings toward the programme:

    http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/111100.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy
    replied
    Re: New HGH

    Originally posted by eldrick
    Originally posted by Daisy
    Originally posted by eldrick
    I assumed you have to have something mutagenic ( radiation, toxic chemicals, etc ) to change any genes - an epo injection certainly isn't going to do it
    Read it again, they are they are talking about changing gene expression profiles in response to hormones, not genetic changes to DNA sequences.
    that is not obvious from the wording - that sounds more like mutagenicity rather than changes in amounts of hormones/proteins produced from the gene
    Let's dissect the comment.
    and even the most intense physiological challenges don't come anywhere near the changes seen in the genes expressing for blood cell production after EPO injections and blood transfusions
    I agree a literal interpretation would imply mutations. But given he discuss this in the context of physiological challenges he must be talking about gene expression. He might have phrased this less ambiguously if he said:
    • even the most intense physiological challenges cannot compare to the changes in gene expression related to red blood cell production seen after EPO injections and blood transfusions


    Originally posted by bijanc
    Hmmm. The Doping Forum unlocks under an assumed name.
    It's OK to talk about the drugs and the testing protocols, its not OK to speculate on who is using drugs.

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    Originally posted by EPelle
    http://www.playthegame.org/upload/29-passport.pdf
    how can anyone take a link seriously that includes the laughable :

    Athletes can also reduce their haemoglobin
    count by simply lying on the floor
    with their feet up against the wall.
    »I asked our athletes if they saw anyone
    lying on their backs in such a position before a
    test round at the Winter Olympics,« he continues.
    »They answered 'yes'. This demonstrates
    that athletes are fully aware of this method.
    so according to this guy, anyone adopting this posture is a doper rather than just doing some loosening up ?!?!

    Leave a comment:


  • bijanc
    replied
    New HGH

    Hmmm. The Doping Forum unlocks under an assumed name.

    BCB

    Leave a comment:


  • EPelle
    replied
    http://www.playthegame.org/upload/29-passport.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    Originally posted by Daisy
    Originally posted by eldrick
    I assumed you have to have something mutagenic ( radiation, toxic chemicals, etc ) to change any genes - an epo injection certainly isn't going to do it
    Read it again, they are they are talking about changing gene expression profiles in response to hormones, not genetic changes to DNA sequences.
    that is not obvious from the wording - that sounds more like mutagenicity rather than changes in amounts of hormones/proteins produced from the gene

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy
    replied
    Originally posted by eldrick
    I assumed you have to have something mutagenic ( radiation, toxic chemicals, etc ) to change any genes - an epo injection certainly isn't going to do it
    Read it again, they are they are talking about changing gene expression profiles in response to hormones, not genetic changes to DNA sequences.

    I found this PDF, a british government paper (pdf), online when searching for bloodpassport.

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /67/67.pdf

    It is long but there are some interesting sections. At first glance it seems well balanced and quite realistic. For example, they play down the gene therapy angle, and point out that pharmalogical manipulations are better.

    I found that Sweden is also pursuing the 'blood passport' concept. One recent paper, (that i cannot access) is:

    B. Berglund, B. Ekblom, E. Ekblom, L. Berglund, A. Kallner, P. Reinebo, S. Lindeberg (2007)
    The Swedish Blood Pass project
    Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports 17 (3), 292–297.
    doi:10.1111/j.1600-0838.2006.00550.x

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    and even the most intense physiological challenges don't come anywhere near the changes seen in the genes expressing for blood cell production after EPO injections and blood transfusions
    i found it hard to take him seriously, as nonsense such as above means nothing

    how on earth does an epo injection "change the genes expressing for blood cell production" ???

    i assumed you have to have something mutagenic ( radiation, toxic chemicals, etc ) to change any genes - an epo injection certainly isn't going to do it

    Leave a comment:


  • Daisy
    replied
    Re: New HGH Test Unveiled

    Originally posted by EPelle
    The new test works by finding proteins triggered by the hormone. "We've been able to identify markers that show abuse by measuring when other hormones and proteins released by human growth hormone reach certain levels," said Dr. Olivier Rabin, WADA's science director. Rabin said that these biological markers are not affected by any other differences between athletes, such as ethnicity, gender, or physiology.
    For those who are interested this has been discussed a little with respect to EPO (see below). The very important point made above is: "biological markers are not affected by any other differences between athletes, such as ethnicity, gender, or physiology."

    The biological markers chosen need to be beyond doubt with respect to reporting drug usage, and below Rob argues they are beyond doubt (for EPO). What will be interesting here is whether these markers are good enough to beat a defense lawyer who only needs to find a one exception to cast a defense of reasonable doubt.

    Quotes below from an older thread discussing similar blood test for EPO:
    http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... 780#287780
    Originally posted by Rob Parisotto
    Originally posted by Daisy
    From reading you various posts here it sounds as if you think the best way to catch the EPO cheats is to monitor the secondary effects of the EPO. i.e. high RBC count, or using gene expression profiles. Is this really an acceptable way to catch drug cheats? What happens if someone is a genetic freak and that is the normal expression profile? It seems that the variation in the human population, let alone in one individual (environmental and circadian effects), makes it almost impossible to set 'normal' values on anything in the body. And lets not forget that elite athletes are freakish in nature and are the very ones we'd expect to be the outliers for many gene expression levels. For example, in women, how much natural testosterone is allowed before they are banned?
    I keep coming back to the indirect blood markers and gene maps to counter all of the different drugs/methods of blood doping. The genetics research project that I alluded to in an earlier post has shown some remarkable changes and even the most intense physiological challenges don't come anywhere near the changes seen in the genes expressing for blood cell production after EPO injections and blood transfusions. (changes >10SD's). I think many will be surprised by the findings of this research. The paper should be out in the next year.

    This will be the way of the future even taking into account that the normal and expected variations in any biological marker in the body usually renders such testing methods uncertain and prone to false positives and ammunition for clever lawyers. Many have already argued the case for a 'blood passport' .

    Cheers. Rob.
    Rob also brought up the idea of the "blood passport" that was touched on in some older threads. I don't have references for those right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • EPelle
    started a topic New HGH Test Unveiled

    New HGH Test Unveiled

    The new test works by finding proteins triggered by the hormone. "We've been able to identify markers that show abuse by measuring when other hormones and proteins released by human growth hormone reach certain levels," said Dr. Olivier Rabin, WADA's science director. Rabin said that these biological markers are not affected by any other differences between athletes, such as ethnicity, gender, or physiology.

    WADA has already introduced another test, which identifies the synthetic version of human growth hormone in the body, on a limited scale. That test was in place at the Athens and Turin Olympic Games. The agency hopes to use both tests together to maximize their chances of detection. But finding cheating athletes on a large scale will be difficult since the hormone can only be detected in blood — only trace amounts are present in urine. And blood tests are not used as regularly as urine tests.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,283993,00.html
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