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  • The Best Form Of Government [split]

    I guess the "answer" we will always come back to is that the current system of selection is best despite it's deficiencies just like our American government is the best in the world despite its many "warts". We'd all like to improve it but we can't figure out how!

  • #2
    Originally posted by BYU grad
    just like our American government is the best in the world despite its many "warts". We'd all like to improve it but we can't figure out how!
    I strongly disagree with your presumption that "our American government is the best in the world" and I can think of many ways to improve upon it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by jazzcyclist
      Originally posted by BYU grad
      just like our American government is the best in the world despite its many "warts". We'd all like to improve it but we can't figure out how!
      I strongly disagree with your presumption that "our American government is the best in the world" and I can think of many ways to improve upon it.
      I'd argue that the framework and long-term implementation is about as good as it gets. However, this does not preclude ups and downs in the implementation at any single point in time . . .

      And there is always room for improvement!

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      • #4
        [quote=bad hammy]
        Originally posted by jazzcyclist
        Originally posted by "BYU grad":2gxuz758
        just like our American government is the best in the world despite its many "warts". We'd all like to improve it but we can't figure out how!
        I strongly disagree with your presumption that "our American government is the best in the world" and I can think of many ways to improve upon it.
        I'd argue that the framework and long-term implementation is about as good as it gets. However, this does not preclude ups and downs in the implementation at any single point in time . . .

        And there is always room for improvement![/quote:2gxuz758]

        Other countries have a better framework, in my opinion, that would never be accepted in this country. For example, look at the what W is imposing on the Iraqis. There are set-asides in the Iraqi government's executive branch and parliament for a certain percentage of Kurds, Sunnis and women. This protects minorities in Iraq, but white males in this country would never go for a similar plan to protect Blacks, Hispanics and women in the U.S.A. Also, look at our federal government's inability to get anti-lynching legislation passed. In the one hundred years following the civil war, over 200 bills were proposed under seven different Presidents. But every one of these bills were killed with Southern filibusters. Today, there is still no federal legislation to protect Blacks from lynching, but as Michael Vick will attest, we have federal legislation to protect dogs from lynching. How effective is a government that has no means of protecting its citizens from extra-judicial justice in 2007? This is just the tip of the iceberg. What about our lobbying laws and other means that unscrupulous politicians can use the government to enrich themselves? In some countries, you just can't go from being a member of parliament one week to a $2,000,000-per-year lobbyist the next week.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jazzcyclist
          Also, look at our federal government's inability to get anti-lynching legislation passed. In the one hundred years following the civil war, over 200 bills were proposed under seven different Presidents. But every one of these bills were killed with Southern filibusters. Today, there is still no federal legislation to protect Blacks from lynching . . .
          Do we really need a federal law for that? I believe lynching would be considered murder in every state in the country today, and would be prosecuted and punished as such.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by jazzcyclist
            Other countries have a better framework, in my opinion, that would never be accepted in this country. For example, look at the what W is imposing on the Iraqis.
            Really? Iraq is your example of a government system that is superior to the US??

            That reminds me of a recent meeting I went to where an upper manager in our IT group said that we should change the computer systems for all 2000 of our employees because the one he was touting was used by the Brazilian medical system. I did ask him if he was flying to Brazil the next time he needed a heart transplant . . .

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            • #7
              Jazz is right. Woman are treated much better in Islamic states than the U.S. Lynching is routine in my neighborhood here in America. And all minorities have virtually no rights at all. The US. is bascially a factory for genicide of woman and people of color. I myself have a plan to move to Iran as soon as possible and get out of this horrible racist dictatorship.

              Oh and by the way If Peyton Manning was excused of shooting, drowning, electrocuting and slamming dogs to the ground nobody would have batted an eye. Even PETA would have yawned.
              phsstt!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tandfman
                Do we really need a federal law for that? I believe lynching would be considered murder in every state in the country today, and would be prosecuted and punished as such.
                Yes, when those states systematically refuse to prosecute those responsible for the lynchings. Two years ago, the US Senate issued a formal apology for its failure to enact legislation to outlaw lynchings.

                http://landrieu.senate.gov/lynching/index.cfm

                http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01720.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bad hammy
                  Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                  Other countries have a better framework, in my opinion, that would never be accepted in this country. For example, look at the what W is imposing on the Iraqis.
                  Really? Iraq is your example of a government system that is superior to the US??

                  That reminds me of a recent meeting I went to where an upper manager in our IT group said that we should change the computer systems for all 2000 of our employees because the one he was touting was used by the Brazilian medical system. I did ask him if he was flying to Brazil the next time he needed a heart transplant . . .
                  You mentioned two things bh, framework and implementation. Obviously, the U.S. framework is better than the framework of any non-democracy, but some democracies have a better framework than we do. And though Iraq is a democracy, their implementation is non-existent. So it's absurd to say that overall, Iraq has a better government than we do. However, there are some things in their framework, that W insisted on, that we might want to take a look at.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                    Jazz is right. Woman are treated much better in Islamic states than the U.S. Lynching is routine in my neighborhood here in America. And all minorities have virtually no rights at all. The US. is bascially a factory for genicide of woman and people of color. I myself have a plan to move to Iran as soon as possible and get out of this horrible racist dictatorship.

                    Oh and by the way If Peyton Manning was excused of shooting, drowning, electrocuting and slamming dogs to the ground nobody would have batted an eye. Even PETA would have yawned.
                    You sound like the stereotypical White American nationalist. Our government is always right and every other government is always wrong. The only thing you forgot to do is tell me to go back to Africa.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                      Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                      Jazz is right. Woman are treated much better in Islamic states than the U.S. Lynching is routine in my neighborhood here in America. And all minorities have virtually no rights at all. The US. is bascially a factory for genicide of woman and people of color. I myself have a plan to move to Iran as soon as possible and get out of this horrible racist dictatorship.

                      Oh and by the way If Peyton Manning was excused of shooting, drowning, electrocuting and slamming dogs to the ground nobody would have batted an eye. Even PETA would have yawned.
                      You sound like the stereotypical White American nationalist. Our government is always right and every other government is always wrong. The only thing you forgot to do is tell me to go back to Africa.
                      Most of my heroes are black, (blues guitar, distance running) so i would be very grateful if you stayed.
                      phsstt!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jazzcyclist
                        Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                        Jazz is right. Woman are treated much better in Islamic states than the U.S. Lynching is routine in my neighborhood here in America. And all minorities have virtually no rights at all. The US. is bascially a factory for genicide of woman and people of color. I myself have a plan to move to Iran as soon as possible and get out of this horrible racist dictatorship.

                        Oh and by the way If Peyton Manning was excused of shooting, drowning, electrocuting and slamming dogs to the ground nobody would have batted an eye. Even PETA would have yawned.
                        You sound like the stereotypical White American nationalist. Our government is always right and every other government is always wrong. The only thing you forgot to do is tell me to go back to Africa.
                        Jazz--you're a bit out of line here I think. Why would anybody tell you to go back to Africa unless they knew you were black (and were an asshole)? Your color has certainly never crossed my mind.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gh
                          Why would anybody tell you to go back to Africa unless they knew you were black (and were an asshole)? Your color has certainly never crossed my mind.
                          E. Garry - I believe the proper term in the politically correct world is anally challenged.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Garry, if you say I’m out of line, then I accept that I’m out of line and I apologize. I guess SQUACKEE’s sarcasm and cynicism just struck me the wrong way, since I don’t feel that I did anything to provoke it. As for me being Black, I think anyone who posts regularly to this site have read enough of my posts to deduce from them my sex, age, geography, political inclinations and race. Surely, I’m not the only one who makes mental notes when the posters on this site indirectly reveal something about themselves. Having said all that, I believe that nationalism is just another form of tribalism. In other words, how is an American who demonizes and disparages people who just happen to have been born in a country such as Iran, Saudi Arabia or France any different from an Iraqi Shiite who demonizes and disparages people who just happen to have been born Sunni or Kurd? And how is an American who defends the actions of his or her country when he or she believes that their government is behaving improperly, any different than a German who defended Hitler when he had tanks rolling all over Europe and was throwing Jews into concentration camps?

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                            • #15
                              Jazz; If it could take back the "out of line" comment I would. That's far too harsh for critiquing (not criticizing) your position.

                              Let me put it another way, being a staunch believer in the U.S. system of government as the finest ever created (this being a political science thread, not the verboten politics), I think that any criticism of it should be directed not at the system itself, but at the dickheads who can/do populate it.

                              When the U.S. leaves Iraq (and this means now or a decade down the road, just so as not to start another unacceptable line of thught), being, IMHO, a Christian or a Jew will mean something close to a death sentence, and being a woman will mean back to the Casper costume. No matter what the system, the bottom line always come down to how individual interpret it.

                              ps--at the risk of insulting Squackee, he spends too much time tryig to be funny to get exercised ove r what might appear to be serious judgments (sorry, Squack; you made the bed, sleep tight).

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