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  • Honda Hydrogen Hoopla

    Perhaps humanity will survive long enough to make use of these:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7456141.stm

    http://www.ford.com/innovation/environm ... ybrid-346p
    Take good care of yourself.

  • #2
    There are so many technologies out there. Fuel cell (hydrogen) just seems like it is big nut to crack. The infrastructure to have hydrogen fueling stations seems like it would take a long time.

    Compared to electric (plug in) hybrid, or my favorite (compressed air), it seems as though hydrogen would take much longer to get up and running on a mass scale, would be more costly to operate, and doesn't do anything the other technologies can't.

    We need something.

    BTW- Apparently the Ford Focus deisel gets beyond 60 mpg but isn't available in the USA.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cyril
      There are so many technologies out there. Fuel cell (hydrogen) just seems like it is big nut to crack. The infrastructure to have hydrogen fueling stations seems like it would take a long time.
      If the gas stations can't sell gas would they not want to switch to hydrogen? Certainly they will not be selling electricity.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Daisy
        Originally posted by Cyril
        There are so many technologies out there. Fuel cell (hydrogen) just seems like it is big nut to crack. The infrastructure to have hydrogen fueling stations seems like it would take a long time.
        If the gas stations can't sell gas would they not want to switch to hydrogen? Certainly they will not be selling electricity.
        You are right. They would want to sell hydrogen. But, how long until they are able to produce hydrogen at a reasonable cost? Quite a long time. Also, they will be able to continue to sell gas for a very long time. It is just that the price will continue to go up. Currently, the cost of hydrogen is also very high.

        The economics of fuel is undoubtably one of the things driving the technology. A pure electric, or high efficiency elec/gas hybrid wouldn't require the same flow of cash through the economy.

        The compressed air technology requires a very short charging period which can be done at home or at a charging station. Again, the requirements for the compressed air is about $2.50 for 125 miles (and this can be cut down by solar panels on the compressors). Stations could charge $5.00 for a charge making a little profit, but even $5.00 for 125 miles of driving won't be high cash through the economy.

        The best thing about electric and compressed air is that it is ready to go - the technology has been developed and proven and it wouldn't require infrastrution - You can charge at home.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cyril
          You can charge at home.
          Has anyone calculated the cost per mile for electric/compressed air cars compared to petrol and the current hybrids, such as the Prius. Even better, what is the cost per mile over the expected lifetime of the respective cars? Thus the price of replacement batteries and associated repairs gets factored in too.

          Comment


          • #6
            Further reading:

            http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/

            This might be a start:

            http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenand ... ncial.html
            Take good care of yourself.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Daisy
              Originally posted by Cyril
              You can charge at home.
              Has anyone calculated the cost per mile for electric/compressed air cars compared to petrol and the current hybrids, such as the Prius. Even better, what is the cost per mile over the expected lifetime of the respective cars? Thus the price of replacement batteries and associated repairs gets factored in too.
              The air powered technology reports $2.50 of electricity for 125 miles on the 2 seater being produced in India. This would be the equivalent of about 200 miles on one gallon of gas at the current rate in the US. The cost of the car is about $12,500. There are no battery requirements.

              The 6-seat hybrid model is supposed to get about 109 mpg on highway and pure air-power up to 40 mph. This is to be offered to the US in 2010. There are no battery requirements.

              Battery technology is still a little problem for some elec. and hybrid but it is advancing quickly. The cost of driving a Prius is still a little high due to the battery replacement costs and it gets "only" about 42 mpg.

              The deisel Ford Focus gets 60mpg and has no additional maintenance costs. The price is also low. Unfortunately you can't get one in the US...maybe they should turn some of those closed Expedition plants into Focus deisel plants.

              Comment


              • #8
                Cyril,
                You might want to check here for a somewhat more realistic assessment of the compressed air car.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed-air_car

                While it is an interesting concept, as is hydrogen technology, it's no silver bullet. Most notably, it the recharge cost is considerably higher than the plug-in hybrids. It's not insignicant. And the home-user version of the "recharge" unit is very slow, though the commercial stations version is pretty quick. It is further plagued by pretty iffy containment tank technology that sounds to me like an explosion just waiting to happen, even whth the most advanced carbon-fiber tanks. Add to that the very spotty performance in cold weather and I think that this will remain non-commercially viable for some time to come, though it'll likely beat hydrogen powered vehicles to marke by a bunch.

                I think that the upcoming GM electric technologies being developed under the Volt moniker are far more promising. They've bet the farm on it, so I hope they can hang on 'till the distant economic break-even point. Unlike the Prius, which is a battery-assist internal combustion-driven system, the Volt is all electric to the wheels.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks. Yes, the air car is not without problems. I am not sure about the energy requirements shown. I have seen different numbers.

                  The Volt would also be great. I think Toyota will also be developing a plug-in Prius in the future.

                  It appears to me that the future of commuter vehicles is electric. Solar is becoming much better and having a home charging system to assist with powering either a compressor or batteries makes either of these the a better choice.

                  Also, the technology for both of these types of cars is way ahead of hydrogen.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I forgot to mention what I thnk is the real fly in the ointment of all of these options - the reliance upon electrical power to re-charge either electric or compessed gas cars and the massive power/electricy requirements used in creating hyrdrogen.

                    Let's face it, many parts of the country are currently subject to electrical blackouts/brownouts during peak summertime useage as it is. We can't even meet current demand. Where's all this additional electrical power comin' from if we all start wanting to recharge our electric vehicles? We'd have to be willing and able to beef-up production (I favor nuclear power for that) as well as upgrade the grid/delivery systems considerably. This is big dollar stuff.

                    I think the answer there must come in the form of locally generated power. Home-based solar would reduce the grid/infrastructure problem, but is woefully unsuited for the task in many parts of the country even if/when it does become economically feasable for the masses. I ain't holdin' my breath (besides, I live in the Seattle area).

                    Until we all get Flux Capacitors, all bets're off!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Of course, charging would be done during "down hours" in the evenings when everyone is asleep.

                      Home solar could help significantly in many parts of the country. These would be low cost light weight commuter cars, driven less than 40 miles per day.

                      If something like this could be priced attractively and catch on as a secondary vehicle just to get around town and to and from work, it could greatly cut down on the demand for gas.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If ifs and buts
                        were candy and nuts
                        we'd all have a merry Christmas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Wang Lung
                          If ifs and buts
                          were candy and nuts
                          we'd all have a merry Christmas

                          If Big Oil Sluts
                          Weren't such ravenous shmucks.....


                          Sorry, my well of creativity has been pumped dry, anyone care to continue the ditty?
                          Take good care of yourself.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mennisco
                            If Big Oil Sluts
                            Weren't such ravenous shmucks.....
                            But Menn ya know they're money grabbing F$#%$!
                            phsstt!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Squackee in Scottsville,

                              Beware this lifestyle, it shall be defended unto the depths of the earth -




                              :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:

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