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End of World Nigh ?

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  • eldrick
    replied
    earth's core is molten

    a black hole is going to swallow this up, keeping overall mass constant, but earth's radius is going to reduce, pushing up value of g

    i'd guess, best way to test it in your kitchen is to get out those nice electronic scales, put in small amount of sugar in an air-tight container to say 100g exact weight

    re-weigh weekly & if it starts creeping up to 100.5g, 101g...

    we are screwed :shock:

    Leave a comment:


  • imaginative
    replied
    Originally posted by tandfman
    Originally posted by JRM
    If created, the black holes will have a mass roughly 10,000 times that of a proton. So, right after they're created they won't do much of anything. The problem comes when the black hole starts eating other particles is encounters. As it grows, it becomes more problematic.

    In particular, I do not see how it could sink into the earth at a speed
    where it would be impossible to simple dig up a piece of the floor and send
    it away on the next space shuttle. (Assuming that it actually managed to
    land on a floor in the first place---and, obviously, that its existence and
    position were known.)
    Because the black hole would be so small (about 100,000 times smaller than a proton), it would sink to the center of the Earth and we'd never be able to find it.
    Is it possible that we would not know that the black hole has been created and has sunk to the center of th Earth when it happened? If so, when and how would it start to provide evidence of its existence?
    This is one of the things that puzzle me too. I do not see how it
    could have any _direct_ effect on the surface. Instead, it would just
    eat up the floating parts of the earths innards, effectively creating
    a somewhat larger black-hole surrounded by empty space and a giant
    shell corresponding to the surface. I can only guess that it would
    have indirect effects through seizmic disturbances and eventually a
    collapse of the surface due to lack of supporting inner pressure (and
    even here I am uncertain, lacking the geological knowledge, if the
    surface may not be stable enough to survive). Effectively, it would
    not be a change in gravity, but a change in supporting structures, that
    ended things.

    Another interesting thought is that the black hole would not go from
    the surface to a resting place at the center of the earth. For one
    thing, it would likely have a jo-jo like movement, moving past the
    center, then moving up-again, then down, until slowly growing to a
    halt. For another, it will start with a tangential (to the earth's
    rotation) velocity component that is larger than the surround masses
    closer to the earth's center. This in turn could cause a spiral
    movement of some kind. Eventually, it all boils down to how fast it
    would absorb surrounding mass (and thus slow down).

    Then again, if JMR is right about the low amount of resistance offered
    through the original small size, the likelyhood of absorbing mass at
    any given time is comparatively small (at least initially) making this
    a slow process.

    I would not like to be the one developing a mathematical model for
    this problem.

    (Why do I answer when I do not really know anything? Because I have
    noticed that the more I write today, the better my thoughts are
    tomorrow---even if what I write today is off the mark.)

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    you's start noticing the earth's surface gravity to start slowly increasing from 9.81m/s^2 to 9.82, 9.83...

    Leave a comment:


  • tandfman
    replied
    Originally posted by JRM
    If created, the black holes will have a mass roughly 10,000 times that of a proton. So, right after they're created they won't do much of anything. The problem comes when the black hole starts eating other particles is encounters. As it grows, it becomes more problematic.

    In particular, I do not see how it could sink into the earth at a speed
    where it would be impossible to simple dig up a piece of the floor and send
    it away on the next space shuttle. (Assuming that it actually managed to
    land on a floor in the first place---and, obviously, that its existence and
    position were known.)
    Because the black hole would be so small (about 100,000 times smaller than a proton), it would sink to the center of the Earth and we'd never be able to find it.
    Is it possible that we would not know that the black hole has been created and has sunk to the center of th Earth when it happened? If so, when and how would it start to provide evidence of its existence?

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    if you slow the protons down this amount, they are just going to bounce off each other with nothing happening

    they need this great speed because they want to "smash 'em up" & see what's hiding inside these protons - fantasy particles like this higgs particle, etc ( jrm can tell us properly )

    no speed - no experiment

    Leave a comment:


  • BruceFlorman
    replied
    Re: End of World Nigh ?

    Originally posted by JRM
    3. If they are created and are stable, the black holes must remain on the Earth. The protons involved in the collisions are traveling at 99.99999% the speed of light. Any particles that fly out of the collision -- including black holes -- will have a speed much, much greater than the Earth's escape velocity. So, most likely if (1, 2) are correct, the black holes will fly out into space before we know they're there.

    4. There is a MINISCULE probability that the black holes will be created with precisely 0 velocity (two protons colliding exactly head on with exactly the same speed can do this, but that's very difficult to do). If that happens (and they are stable), the black hole will sink into the earth toward the core and start gobbling stuff up. In this case, depending on who you ask, we'll have between 5-30 years to figure out how to get off the planet.
    Any chance of talkin' them into slowing one of the particle streams down to 99.99963% the speed of light? That way (if I didn't screw up the math) any perfect head-on collisions should still have the 11.2 km/s needed to become someone else's problem, rather than ours. 8-)

    And suppose one goes flyin' outta Switzerland and heads for the sun?!? How long will we have to figure out how to get out of the solar system? :wink:

    Leave a comment:


  • paulthefan
    replied
    Re: End of World Nigh ?

    Originally posted by eldrick
    tomorrow, scientists attempt to make a mini "big bang"
    ..
    even as a guy who likes science, i'm a little queasy at this experiment
    a man of your stature can not really be worried.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aiden
    replied
    Re: End of World Nigh ?

    Originally posted by imaginative
    In David Brin's novel "Earth" a manmade micro blackhole slips into the core of the earth.
    I have one in my dryer. Takes one sock per load.

    Leave a comment:


  • rasb
    replied
    I just caught some CNN coverage on the CERN project.
    Good stuff, JRM !
    Remember, if Scenario # 4 (as above) does play out, head for Alaska. We'll all be safe there. I hope the bridge is finished

    Leave a comment:


  • imaginative
    replied
    Re: End of World Nigh ?

    Originally posted by ponytayne
    Quick, JRM, get your idea copyrighted! Fox Searchlight or [insert other movie studio here] will have this movie out in 12 months if you dont.
    I briefly skimmed through a few wikipedia pages (I hope to have time to
    read up properly at a later time), and
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole
    claims that the fiction already exists:

    In David Brin's novel "Earth" a manmade micro blackhole slips into the core
    of the earth.

    Leave a comment:


  • JRM
    replied
    Originally posted by imaginative
    Could such a miniscule black hole actually destroy the planet? To me, it seems that with the total mass (and therefore gravitional force) available to the black hole, it would only have a very marginal effect except in the very long term (even if we overlook e.g. the possibility of evaporation).
    If created, the black holes will have a mass roughly 10,000 times that of a proton. So, right after they're created they won't do much of anything. The problem comes when the black hole starts eating other particles is encounters. As it grows, it becomes more problematic.

    In particular, I do not see how it could sink into the earth at a speed
    where it would be impossible to simple dig up a piece of the floor and send
    it away on the next space shuttle. (Assuming that it actually managed to
    land on a floor in the first place---and, obviously, that its existence and
    position were known.)
    Because the black hole would be so small (about 100,000 times smaller than a proton), it would sink to the center of the Earth and we'd never be able to find it.

    Originally posted by scottmitchell74
    Has anyone read the book Blasphemy?
    Haven't seen that one!

    Leave a comment:


  • scottmitchell74
    replied
    Has anyone read the book Blasphemy?

    Blasphemy is a novel by Douglas Preston that was released on January 8, 2008.

    [edit] Plot summary

    The world's largest supercollider, known as Isabella, is constructed inside Red Mesa, hoping to learn the physics behind the Big Bang theory.

    A group of a dozen scientists, handpicked by Nobel Prize winning Gregory Hazelius are sent to work on the project, and what they discover must be hidden from the world at all costs. Meanwhile, an ex-CIA agent named Wyman Ford attempts to familiarize himself with them and learn their secret.
    Pretty good/interesting book. Worth a read if you dig this stuff. (I does make all Christians out to either be loonies or sheep....but it's just a story)

    Leave a comment:


  • imaginative
    replied
    Could such a miniscule black hole actually destroy the planet? To me, it
    seems that with the total mass (and therefore gravitional force) available
    to the black hole, it would only have a very marginal effect except in the
    very long term (even if we overlook e.g. the possibility of evaporation).

    In particular, I do not see how it could sink into the earth at a speed
    where it would be impossible to simple dig up a piece of the floor and send
    it away on the next space shuttle. (Assuming that it actually managed to
    land on a floor in the first place---and, obviously, that its existence and
    position were known.)

    Disclaimer: I have not read up on the experiment, and may be speaking out
    of ignorance.

    Leave a comment:


  • ponytayne
    replied
    Re: End of World Nigh ?

    Originally posted by proofs in the pudd'in
    Originally posted by JRM
    The experiment is not without its detractors.

    Websites on the Internet, itself created at CERN in the early 1990s as a means of passing particle research results to scientists around the globe, have been inundated with claims that the LHC will create black holes sucking in the planet.
    The "detractors" are out to lunch. This kind of disaster scenario is predicated on the synchrony of multiple, improbable events, including:

    1. The mini-black holes are actually created (requires certainly theories to be correct, and there's no guarantee that they are)

    2. If created, the mini-black holes must be stable to be a concern. Stephen Hawking has proven (on paper) that black holes will evaporate. We haven't been able to confirm this fact, because (a) we haven't observed black holes directly, and (b) the big black holes that exist in the universe will evaporate very slowly and undetectably. If black holes are created at the LHC (subject to condition 1), they will be very tiny and will evaporate very quickly, like in 0.000000000000000000000000001 s (i.e. much faster than Bolt's reaction time!).

    3. If they are created and are stable, the black holes must remain on the Earth. The protons involved in the collisions are traveling at 99.99999% the speed of light. Any particles that fly out of the collision -- including black holes -- will have a speed much, much greater than the Earth's escape velocity. So, most likely if (1, 2) are correct, the black holes will fly out into space before we know they're there.

    4. There is a MINISCULE probability that the black holes will be created with precisely 0 velocity (two protons colliding exactly head on with exactly the same speed can do this, but that's very difficult to do). If that happens (and they are stable), the black hole will sink into the earth toward the core and start gobbling stuff up. In this case, depending on who you ask, we'll have between 5-30 years to figure out how to get off the planet.

    Anyway, the short answer to the above quote is: "Ain't gonna happen!"
    This would be a great movie if number 4 happened
    Quick, JRM, get your idea copyrighted! Fox Searchlight or [insert other movie studio here] will have this movie out in 12 months if you dont.

    Leave a comment:


  • eldrick
    replied
    so that makes 3 of us with a smolin book ? :P

    ( must admit i got mine in a job lot of books thru a bookclub a few years ago - no one seemed to be interested in the science books & i assumed they wanted to clear warehouse space for harry potter & so they had an offer of $20 for 5 of them or $35 for any 10 ( in fact, i think if i'd waited another coupla months, they have paid me to take them off their hands :wink: ) )

    Leave a comment:

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