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  • JRM
    replied
    Originally posted by 26mi235
    So what is she going to do when she gets to HS;
    There is a myriad of non-calculus math subjects that students can/should learn in high school. A REALLY good handle on algebra and geometry, linear algebra (matrices and vectors), functions, number systems (rational, real, transcendental, etc...), complex numbers, and so forth. Your daughter sounds like the exception to the rule, and would probably benefit from taking courses at the local college/university when she gets to HS so she doesn't get bored/rusty.

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  • 26mi235
    replied
    I was not mature enough to handle college efficiently until age 18, and while more academically advanced than most, think that academically it was good that I did not get accelerated. It did take me a while to adjust to HS because my elementary school did not prepare students as well as others in the district (e.g., they recommended to NO ONE take algebra in their freshman year because their students did not do well in it). I also started college thinking of being a math major, although it was until spring of my junior year when I officially abandoned that major - made easy to do when I took an econ class and knew I was in the right field.

    My daughter is now in 7th grade and has been bored and under-challenged in math almost the entire school experience. In 6th grade she was in a supposedly 'most advanced of the normal math classes' (i.e., not in the accelerated class that was doing algebra). Finally, the last couple of sections they had pre-tests at the beginning and she tested out completely and they let her start on algebra on her own. She finished algebra over the summer and in now in the advanced math class, which is covering geometry now. So what is she going to do when she gets to HS; well she take algebra-trig in 8th grade and XXX? as a freshman and pre-calc/calc as a sophomore and then what for someone that is probably good in math but not a math major? It does seem that the geometry she now has is a bit easier than my 10th grade class, although the fellow students are a much better match for her. If she stops with math her sophomore year, she will get rusty in those tools by the time she really needs to use them in college and I do not think that she will be champing at the bit to go to college early.

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  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by rasb
    As with Marlow, I went into University as a Math. major, but really had no clue what I wanted to do, and eventually ended up in Psychology and English.
    :shock: my long lost twin??!! :shock:

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  • jhc68
    replied
    I've got the notion that people who post here tend to have found high school easy. It is a T&FN demographic: computer savvy people who love to study old lists and analyze and predict human performances. In other words, smart people hang here and, apart from folks who have taught or coached in public schools, there may be a skewed paradigm when we look back at our school experiences. Not everyone found educational success so effortless to attain..

    As a public school student and teacher, I was always well aware that lots of kids could have waltzed through high school much faster than they did. For some, that is ideal. For others, it may be way better to take the whole 8 semester process.

    As a public school student and teacher, I was also well aware that lots of other kids do not have either the intellectual skill set or the inclination to pursue a four year college education. Some don't have the tools to finish high school, and others don't have the tools to enter 9th grade. This does not mean that they are helpless or will be life-long losers, but it does mean that no matter how much teachers and parents and politicians push them, some children will not master algebra skills in 8th grade (as is now required in California) and some will never pass New Hampshire's exam battery no matter how many times they have the opportunity to take the tests.

    I've taught dual-enrollment (HS & City College credit simultaneously) to high end kids, and I'm not a big fan of the idea. Most students need to reach a higher level of experience and background knowledge to function at a college level intellectually and emotionally. No need to rush things except for those who are eager to rush themselves.

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  • cullman
    replied
    Originally posted by rasb
    Sport and women kept getting in the way of Higher Education.
    Whattya mean...Sport and women is Higher Education!

    cman

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  • rasb
    replied
    I found school way too easy, so took a long time to develop reasonable study skills. I skipped one grade, and so went to University when I was 16, and I was a late developer, so was a very young 16. I wasn't ready, and would have been much better off to have gone a year or two later, at least.
    I think those who argue to advance young people in school, with academic considerations in mind, are missing a large part of the puzzle of growing up.
    As with Marlow, I went into University as a Math. major, but really had no clue what I wanted to do, and eventually ended up in Psychology and English. Sport and women kept getting in the way of Higher Education.

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  • bambam
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob H
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Maybe (MAYBE!) one kid in 50 at age 16 is ready for college, and of those that are, 90% are girls. College is more than the academics and child-prodigies have been going to college early all the time. The emotional maturity is just not there for the overwhelming majority. We kid about 'sheltering' kids too much, but they are not ready for the 'real world' (which college even isn'y yet!). If anything, most BOYS need another year of HS!
    I was graduated from high school and entered college at 16 (didn't turn 17 until my second semester). Did I have "emotional maturity"? Probably not--what 16-year old does? Was I ready for the "real world"? Certainly not. But I survived the experience, got through college in 4 years and law school in 3, and so I had my law degree at 23. In the long run, I don't think the acceleration of my primary and secondary education did me any harm. And it did have the benefit of relieving my parents of the need to support me sooner than would have been the case had I taken more time to complete my education.
    I was close, turning 17 only in the spring of my senior year in high school, so being 17 and a couple months when I started college. I did OK and managed to play two sports in college even though I was younger than everybody else - one for four years, and one as a freshman only. Unlike Bob I did not have a medical degree by the time I was just turning 25 - went away to play golf for 7 years first. Don't regret a second of that. The only problem I had ever had as the youngest kid in school thru high school occurred in first grade, when I was the smallest kid in class by far and regularly got beat up one of the bigger kids. My dad figured out a solution to that one though.

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  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by JRM
    Most of the students who get to college and claim to have taken AP calculus don't have a clue what they're doing, or more importantly WHY they're doing it.
    Sigh, that is exactly my story. Took AP Calculus (even got a 4 on the exam) in high school, thought I was God's Gift to math, went to college to be a math major. It only took me one semester to learn how much I didn't know.
    Luckily I found Psych, which requires no higher brain function, and graduated with Honors!

    Leave a comment:


  • mcgato
    replied
    Originally posted by JRM
    On an semi-related note, I really wish high schools would take the time to teach their kids properly instead of trying to accelerate them through to college/university. From my perspective, I'm completely disgusted that high school kids are being rushed to learn calculus (as early as 11th grade in some places), when they could be using the time productively to learn other more relevant math skills to their age-set (e.g. basic algebra). Most of the students who get to college and claim to have taken AP calculus don't have a clue what they're doing, or more importantly WHY they're doing it. They're being taught poorly, and it just messes them up when they do go to college.
    I was an assistant for a calculus course for a couple of years in my undergrad years, and I saw this all the time. People said that they had calculus in high school, and they could not even do simple algebra. My high school did not teach calculus, but it had one of the more rigorous precalc programs around which I think greatly benefitted me and a number of others in my school.

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  • JRM
    replied
    I'm not sure I understand the point. Will the targeted students -- those who will attend community or technical colleges -- actually want to skip ahead two years? An honest question is: how many students in 10th grade actually know they want to attend such institutions?

    On an semi-related note, I really wish high schools would take the time to teach their kids properly instead of trying to accelerate them through to college/university. From my perspective, I'm completely disgusted that high school kids are being rushed to learn calculus (as early as 11th grade in some places), when they could be using the time productively to learn other more relevant math skills to their age-set (e.g. basic algebra). Most of the students who get to college and claim to have taken AP calculus don't have a clue what they're doing, or more importantly WHY they're doing it. They're being taught poorly, and it just messes them up when they do go to college.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob H
    I was graduated from high school and entered college at 16 (didn't turn 17 until my second semester). Did I have "emotional maturity"? Probably not--what 16-year old does? Was I ready for the "real world"? Certainly not. But I survived the experience, got through college in 4 years and law school in 3, and so I had my law degree at 23. In the long run, I don't think the acceleration of my primary and secondary education did me any harm. And it did have the benefit of relieving my parents of the need to support me sooner than would have been the case had I taken more time to complete my education.
    You sir, represent my one in 'many, many' who can flourish. But look where you are now and tell me you represent anywhere near the norm!!!

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  • polevaultpower
    replied
    What is the difference between this and programs like Running Start (WA) or dual enrollment (FL)?

    My fiance's older sister did one of those programs for super geniuses where you basically skip high school and go straight to a 4 year university (UW in her case), She had already skipped a grade too, so she did 5 years there and finished at age 18 with a double major, went on to get a PhD in astrophysics from Princeton and is now married to another astrophysicist. And she's younger than I am. (She obviously did not do sports).

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  • jhc68
    replied
    This is another in the long, long line of desparate and unrealistic educational reforms. It seems clear that no one has projected all the possible consequences here. It might not be a bad direction to take (sports not withstanding!) but after decades of teaching I am dubious about most educational legislation.

    The idea is that only kids who have passed a battery of tests similar to the AP or International Baccalaureate exams would leave school after 10th grade... "a new rigorous state board of exams to be given to 10th graders. Students who pass will be prepared to move on to the state's community or technical colleges, skipping the last two years of high school."

    Of course these students would be precisely the same ones who would want to continue the next 2 years to qualify for admission to elite colleges. Or maybe they would opt for attending junior colleges... in which case the whole college admissions program would have to be adjusted (since junior college students are now considered transfer students with a whold different set of criteria for admissions).

    And very few kids with the intention of attending technical schools would pass these exams if they are really at AP and/or IB level since these exams are specialized and require high levels of competency. They are tests that were created to recognize elite student achievement and were never designed as milestones for average kids.

    Also, do enough technical schools at affordable prices for the masses exist in New Hampshire. They certainly don't in California.

    And for kids who continue in high school wanting to qualify for major universities, will the schools have enough enrollment and financing to offer advanced classes to much smaller groups of students?

    Also, there are the questions of maturity and experience that Marlow has already mentioned. I have a cynical idea that this is one more notion by some group of legislators to save tax money by pushing kids out the school house doors and into the private sector two years early. And there are unknown expenses. Who will design and administer the exams, and at what cost? Currently, the AP, IB and SAT exams are a multi-billion dollar industry.

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  • Bob H
    replied
    Originally posted by Marlow
    Maybe (MAYBE!) one kid in 50 at age 16 is ready for college, and of those that are, 90% are girls. College is more than the academics and child-prodigies have been going to college early all the time. The emotional maturity is just not there for the overwhelming majority. We kid about 'sheltering' kids too much, but they are not ready for the 'real world' (which college even isn'y yet!). If anything, most BOYS need another year of HS!
    I was graduated from high school and entered college at 16 (didn't turn 17 until my second semester). Did I have "emotional maturity"? Probably not--what 16-year old does? Was I ready for the "real world"? Certainly not. But I survived the experience, got through college in 4 years and law school in 3, and so I had my law degree at 23. In the long run, I don't think the acceleration of my primary and secondary education did me any harm. And it did have the benefit of relieving my parents of the need to support me sooner than would have been the case had I taken more time to complete my education.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marlow
    replied
    High school sophomores should be ready for college by age 16.
    Maybe (MAYBE!) one kid in 50 at age 16 is ready for college, and of those that are, 90% are girls. College is more than the academics and child-prodigies have been going to college early all the time. The emotional maturity is just not there for the overwhelming majority. We kid about 'sheltering' kids too much, but they are not ready for the 'real world' (which college even isn'y yet!). If anything, most BOYS need another year of HS!

    Leave a comment:

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