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  • #31
    Re: This will warm the cockles of your heart

    Originally posted by Jack Slocombe
    No clue. Here's my take on Vick. My wife and I have no children - but we do have 5 dogs, and you will search long and hard to find two more rabid animal lovers. A lot of our charitable donations go to the ASPCA and the Animal Protection Society. I detest what Michael Vick did.

    Having said that, he committed a crime, he served his time, he paid a big, big price for it. Let him play now. Let the man have a life and let him make a living. We both love animals but we are not PETA nutcases.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TrackDaddy
      Originally posted by Daisy
      Originally posted by TrackDaddy
      I find it patently hypocritical to hunt for sport and condemn other cultures for their vicious animal sports as though yours is more civilized.
      You're putting words into other peoples mouths here.
      I didn't put words into anyone's mouth.

      When I say 'yours' it's a general statement intended to be understood where aplicable.

      Not necessarily mark or anyone here at all.

      In fact, Mark said he didnt support hunting of any kind...no?
      Well since you were replying to Mark, and in the context of the thread myself too, the implication appeared to be that I and Mark thought hunting was civilised. In the case of Palin and helicopters (the original context), far from it in my case. I'm glad you realise the is not the case.

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      • #33
        There are hunters who love and respect animals, who hunt them. There are hunters who are sadistic madmen and just love to kill. ITS A COMPLICATED ISSUE!

        I know its human to want to see everything in black and white but i find it overly simplistic and rather boring. Its first tier thinking.
        phsstt!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by SQUACKEE
          There are hunters who love and respect animals, who hunt them.
          :!: :shock:

          so when they catch them, they pet them and kiss them?

          If we're talking paint-ball, why didn't ya say so? That would be awesome!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Marlow
            Originally posted by SQUACKEE
            There are hunters who love and respect animals, who hunt them.
            :!: :shock:

            so when they catch them, they pet them and kiss them?

            If we're talking paint-ball, why didn't ya say so? That would be awesome!
            Seriously there are hunters who love and respect animals, if you dont know that you know nothin about hunting. Do you teach your kids to place thier own mis-guided values squarely on every human? That would be very sad.
            phsstt!

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            • #36
              Historically hunting was done out of necessity in order for people to eat.

              Some cultures still rely on hunting to survive.

              But why would someone in this country, in this day and age where we farm food for sustenance do it unless they just wanted to kill something and see it die?

              Hunting wasn't intended for sport, it was for survival...no?

              I do understand the need to keep wildlife numbers undercontrol but honestly there are other ways of doing that.

              Plain and simple hunting is harming animals for sport.

              Like dogfighting.

              Now if its for sport...fine.

              But why do that and be outraged at dogfighting?
              The fool has said...there is no God. Psa 14

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              • #37
                Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                Seriously there are hunters who love and respect animals
                I sincerely hope that no one ever loves and respects me enough to hunt me down and kill me.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Many sporting acts involve killing animals.

                  As for dog fighting, well first lets look at the pit bull and what its historically and currently bred to do. Initially bred to manage bulls in the ring, I believe and currently bred for the most part to be vicious.

                  Another thing...dog fighting isn't new. Cockfighting isnt new. People fighting isnt new. Only PETA is new. :roll:

                  Below is NOT a justification, just an observation:

                  Culturally speaking (see any almanac or encyclopedia) people of different backgrounds and cultures find different things acceptable.

                  Dogfighting was not uncommon. Personally I didnt have the stomach for it, but it wasn't unusual for boys to want to see whose dog was tougher. People would bet to see who would win. You know like hispanics are known for backroad cockfighting? It's a cultural thing that another culture may not understand or find offensive. All cultures have them. After the fight guys would nurse their dogs back to health.

                  It didn't hurt that DOGS WANT TO FIGHT. In fact, we have to train them not to. Its instinctive...no?

                  That is, he underestimated the gravity of his acts and the potential repercussions associated with them. Especially since killing animals in this country is relatively routine, particularly by the dominant culture. He probably figured hey, "Peyton Manning hunts bears", you know?

                  And he paid a huge price for what he did. Far beyond what his actions warranted. The video you saw was the type of thing used to fuel the anti Vick sentiment and to completely destroy this young man taking him from being an NFL QB adored by youth and a QUARTER OF A BILLION DOLLAR income and sending where many other young black males go...

                  To prison in shackles.

                  What he did was worse to you than what people who hunt do.

                  But not to me. I find it patently hypocritical to hunt for sport and condemn other cultures for their vicious animal sports as though yours is more civilized.
                  I appreciate the well thought response. But you continually use the cultural argument as one to stand on... The culture that matters in the Vick case is the American culture within our borders and the vast majority of Americans are appalled by fighting dogs.

                  The same way most Americans are disgusted by strapping a bomb to a teenager and asking them to walk into a crowded market...

                  The same way Americans are upset when another culture has beliefs (and laws) that state women are less valuable than men...

                  The same way Bullfighting is generally considered barbaric and never took root here...

                  The same way most Americans disagree with using 5 year-olds to sew sneakers together...

                  The same way most Americans are repulsed by catching large sharks in nets, cutting off their fins for soup and throwing the shark back in the water to die an excruciating death...

                  The same way American restaurants haven't taken to putting a live monkey's head through a table top and having the guest of honor open it's head with a mallet and eat the first scoop of brains...

                  All of these things are for other cultures to embrace and enjoy. Here in America we have different standards within our borders. For dog fighting, America passed laws that fit it's belief that dog fighting is wrong. There is a maximum punishment associated with dogfighting and Vick got it. Is it too extreme? Not by American standards.

                  If the punishment were too lenient, America would change the rules... I don't hear a lot of clamoring for that.

                  America has decided Hunting is A-ok... No penalty. Dog fighting is illegal and carries a big penalty. Does it make sense? Probably not. But ultimately America sets its own standards for acceptable behavior and dog fighting doesn't make the cut.

                  Personally, I couldn't be more of a "live and let live" kind of guy when it comes to other cultures outside our borders. Indians revere cows... in India... Not in America... Asians eat dogs in their country... OK by me.... But not in America... Our culture has different (but not necessarily better) standards.

                  It is weird but if Vick had funded his dog fighting ring in Mexico, I don't think this would have been as big a deal just like Americans don't care that Hemingway (the author, not the HJ'er!) was a big bullfighting fanatic... in Spain.

                  BTW, no dogs are born fighters... they especially don't like to fight each other, especially to the death. Dogs have to be taught this through a reward ritual system...

                  Fight well get rewarded, fight poorly get punished.

                  They are pack animals who if left to their own devices would only ever fight to protect the pack leader or to assert their own pack dominance. The dogs' would growl, ruffle their fur, snarl, and act tough, but rarely fight and almost never to the death. Submission is all that is called for to assert dominance in a pack animal world. Humans realized that if they became the pack leaders, domestication would be relatively easy. Almost all dogs have to be taught to fight, especially to the death.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Marlow
                    Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                    Seriously there are hunters who love and respect animals
                    I sincerely hope that no one ever loves and respects me enough to hunt me down and kill me.
                    I love and respect you but i am getting close to doing you bodily harm. I now know its a waste of time to try to convince you that not all hunters are sadistic monsters. You seem to think they are all named Bubba and can be heard often saying : I bagged me a critter!"

                    Hunters are people and just like every large group of people there are good ones and bad ones. Becuase you dont share their values you have labeled them all bad, which for someone really smart seems really dumb. Hey wait, becuase you are dumb, all teachers are dumb! :P
                    phsstt!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                      Hunters are people and just like every large group of people there are good ones and bad ones. Because you dont share their values you have labeled them all bad, which for someone really smart seems really dumb. Hey wait, becuase you are dumb, all teachers are dumb! :P
                      I'm not saying that hunters are bad people. I'm saying that I cannot condone killing for fun. If that's dumb, I don't wanna be smart! (to paraphrase one of YOUR favorite lines! )

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                        Originally posted by Marlow
                        Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                        There are hunters who love and respect animals, who hunt them.
                        :!: :shock:

                        so when they catch them, they pet them and kiss them?

                        If we're talking paint-ball, why didn't ya say so? That would be awesome!
                        Seriously there are hunters who love and respect animals, if you dont know that you know nothin about hunting. Do you teach your kids to place thier own mis-guided values squarely on every human? That would be very sad.
                        I doubt that it makes very much difference to the animal being hunted that the person shooting at them loves and respects them. Dead is dead. This reminds me of the interview with Sammy "The Bull" Gravano. He talked about how he had to do hits on his close friend and his brother-in-law, and both times it tore him apart inside. :?

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                        • #42
                          I reason I believe dogs are revered so much in our culture, is because of all the animals in the animal kingdom, none of them sucks up to man the way dogs do. The phrase "man's best friend" does have some history behind it. Dogs may not be as smart as man, but they must be smarter than all the other animals to have the savvy to ingratiate themselves to man the way they do. I wonder if other animals, such as deer for example, could get the same legal protection as dogs if they behaved in a similar fashion.

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                          • #43
                            Deer can't sit on your lap.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tandfman
                              Deer can't sit on your lap.
                              But they can lick you and fetch stuff. :wink:

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                balzonia

                                IMO America's one culture is its diversity of them. That is, America is made up of many different ethnicities each with their own cultural particulars which combine to make us one. Sure there are certain aspects of that diversity that are common among them with laws obviously being the most dominant defining criteria. But many traditions exist in our country which aren't common to all. Choice of food, clothing, music, slangs, etc are obvious ones but we all know there are others.

                                As I stated earlier, Vick KNEW he was breaking the law and is therefore accountable for his actions. But is it not a stretch nor is it even unreasonable to suggest that dogfighting occurs more often in a particular vein of the cultural diversity mentioned earlier than it does in others. It is also believable that he underestimated the dominant culture's love of dogs and disdain of dogfighting. Who's ever heard of someome losing 250million dollars for ANY reason let alone dogfighting? Who's ever heard of anyone going to prison for it prior to Vick? Did the one culture that you allege ever give you an indication that the potential for that degree of repercussion/punitive action existed for dogfighting? Particularly in a country where animals are used for sport? Not me.

                                So yes, we are one nation and through legal parameters one culture.

                                I agree with jc that people love dogs because they are 'man's best friend." But personally I believe that the love of animals has gotten so out of whack that people will soon want to legally marry them. But that's for another thread.

                                IMO people who hunt or approve of it shouldn't act like someone else who uses animals for sport is some kind of maniac and they can't understand the mindset. Sure they can.
                                The fool has said...there is no God. Psa 14

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