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  • #31
    Originally posted by gh
    I have no illusions about the sport ever being mainstream. I'd just like to see it treated with respect, and I think it's possible to have an effective anti-drug program without shitting all over ourselves. The suits don't get it.
    Agreed.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by bad hammy
      Originally posted by Zat0pek
      I'd much, much rather stay a small niche sport that at least tries to preserve the integrity of its records and competition than sell our collective soul to the Devil in order to become "mainstream."

      That's a very easy choice for me.
      Fair enough. But if we were not a small niche sport we would have:

      1. Better athletes. Now the best ones go play a money-making sports if they have any skills. If money was similar in T&F a lot of them would be headed our way.

      2. More big domestic meets, and an indoor circuit that was actually nationwide instead of just an east coast thing.

      3. Bigger and better stadiums to hold the crowds flocking to watch the action in person.

      4. Lots more T&F action on TV.

      5. An image of T&F as being a fairly clean sport.

      But no, wouldn't want any of that stuff. Hell no. Instead we have a dirty sport with a dirty sport image, no fans, crappy TV coverage, few opportunities to see the stuff live and substandard facilities when we do find a meet to attend, all while the best athletes go elsewhere. Looks good to me . . .
      See, this is why people sell their souls to the Devil. The temptation of money, fame and worldly adulation makes them willing to do anything.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Zat0pek
        See, this is why people sell their souls to the Devil. The temptation of money, fame and worldly adulation makes them willing to do anything.
        I'm not looking to T&F for money; I want more opportunities to see better athletes in better facilities, and more and better TV coverage. Thanks to the niche market you seem satisfied with this will never happen.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by bad hammy
          Originally posted by Zat0pek
          See, this is why people sell their souls to the Devil. The temptation of money, fame and worldly adulation makes them willing to do anything.
          I'm not looking to T&F for money; I want more opportunities to see better athletes in better facilities, and more and better TV coverage. Thanks to the niche market you seem satisfied with this will never happen.
          The obvious crux of the situation is the definition of a "better athlete".
          Clearly, it is easy to crank out some wired up, doped up, super-human performance levels. We already have some of those that never got "caught"...
          Perhaps the human species is evolving in that direction, as judged by current media coverage of, and sponsorship support of some really ugly stuff...
          Is that what we want for our sport, and our society, and our children?
          Not for me, thanks...I made that decision, with some athletes, many years ago...

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by rasb
            Originally posted by bad hammy
            Originally posted by Zat0pek
            See, this is why people sell their souls to the Devil. The temptation of money, fame and worldly adulation makes them willing to do anything.
            I'm not looking to T&F for money; I want more opportunities to see better athletes in better facilities, and more and better TV coverage. Thanks to the niche market you seem satisfied with this will never happen.
            The obvious crux of the situation is the definition of a "better athlete".
            Clearly, it is easy to crank out some wired up, doped up, super-human performance levels. We already have some of those that never got "caught"...
            Perhaps the human species is evolving in that direction, as judged by current media coverage of, and sponsorship support of some really ugly stuff...
            Is that what we want for our sport, and our society, and our children?
            Not for me, thanks...I made that decision, with some athletes, many years ago...
            Not what I meant. I meant that it would be nice if the sport was successful enough to attract top-notch athletes who currently gravitate towards sports where folks make more money.

            Comment


            • #36
              [quote=bad hammy]
              Originally posted by rasb
              Originally posted by "bad hammy":uw38ualf
              Originally posted by Zat0pek
              See, this is why people sell their souls to the Devil. The temptation of money, fame and worldly adulation makes them willing to do anything.
              I'm not looking to T&F for money; I want more opportunities to see better athletes in better facilities, and more and better TV coverage. Thanks to the niche market you seem satisfied with this will never happen.
              The obvious crux of the situation is the definition of a "better athlete".
              Clearly, it is easy to crank out some wired up, doped up, super-human performance levels. We already have some of those that never got "caught"...
              Perhaps the human species is evolving in that direction, as judged by current media coverage of, and sponsorship support of some really ugly stuff...
              Is that what we want for our sport, and our society, and our children?
              Not for me, thanks...I made that decision, with some athletes, many years ago...
              Not what I meant. I meant that it would be nice if the sport was successful enough to attract top-notch athletes who currently gravitate towards sports where folks make more money.[/quote:uw38ualf]

              Yep, I got that part, bad hammy....By the way, why are you threatening the health of so many sprinters (esp. women) going into the Worlds.....
              However, I think we have some decision-making to do, as alluded to by many others, as to how seriously we take on the drug problems in our sport. And I think there is some sort of relationship between that point, and the issues you present.... (e.g. top-notch athletes / more money, etc...)
              Crosswalks / cheating to win / etc... Important stuff to me, but I am old....

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by rasb
                Originally posted by 2 cents
                Yeah, the problem is track and field is permeated with too much integrity. That is the problem. Get real. I believe the much bigger issue is that most spectators find the sport boring. You're kidding yourselves if you believe that PEDs are the biggest issue. The people need bread and circuses, and I believe they'll take their circuses with performance-enhanced performers. Many people find soccer boring, and I don't believe they've been stigmatized with drug scandals, have they?
                Could you please re-state your main point --- I'm missing it here...
                Is anyone suggesting that we ignore PED's? Or downplay their role in our sport, or sweep them under the rug? Or encourage our kids to win at all costs, and cheat if you can get away with it?
                Our PEDs rules are too Draconian. Look at Gatlin's case. Even two years for the first offense are harsh, what he got was an equivalent of life for a steroid offense and an his own administrative mistake as a teenager. Every other sport would dismiss the first transgression.
                We treat stimulants as a big deal. We treat hematocrit enhancers as a big deal. We punish people for marijuana (not even a PED).
                Zat0pek paints the picture in black-and-white (he represents a zero tolerance crowd). Modafinil should not be considered on par with "a pact with the devil" There is a middle ground.
                "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                by Thomas Henry Huxley

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by rasb
                  However, I think we have some decision-making to do, as alluded to by many others, as to how seriously we take on the drug problems in our sport. And I think there is some sort of relationship between that point, and the issues you present.... (e.g. top-notch athletes / more money, etc...)
                  Crosswalks / cheating to win / etc... Important stuff to me, but I am old....
                  I see absolutely no sings of movement from the decision makers on how we handle PED enforcement (testing/penalties/pillorying of the offenders) and in my opinion it is already way too late. The train has left the station and damn near no one on board (ie sports fans) gives a rats ass for T&F.

                  My earlier posts on this thread were very Don Quixote-ish. This sport is beyond its death throes as a big time sport and in many ways T&F killed itself, due in large part by its PED policies . . .

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pego
                    Originally posted by rasb
                    Originally posted by 2 cents
                    Yeah, the problem is track and field is permeated with too much integrity. That is the problem. Get real. I believe the much bigger issue is that most spectators find the sport boring. You're kidding yourselves if you believe that PEDs are the biggest issue. The people need bread and circuses, and I believe they'll take their circuses with performance-enhanced performers. Many people find soccer boring, and I don't believe they've been stigmatized with drug scandals, have they?
                    Could you please re-state your main point --- I'm missing it here...
                    Is anyone suggesting that we ignore PED's? Or downplay their role in our sport, or sweep them under the rug? Or encourage our kids to win at all costs, and cheat if you can get away with it?
                    Our PEDs rules are too Draconian. Look at Gatlin's case. Even two years for the first offense are harsh, what he got was an equivalent of life for a steroid offense and an his own administrative mistake as a teenager. Every other sport would dismiss the first transgression.
                    We treat stimulants as a big deal. We treat hematocrit enhancers as a big deal. We punish people for marijuana (not even a PED).
                    Zat0pek paints the picture in black-and-white (he represents a zero tolerance crowd). Modafinil should not be considered on par with "a pact with the devil" There is a middle ground.
                    So, pego, putting aside for the moment Gatlin, marijuana, etc....
                    You seem to be suggesting in this post, and in others that I have read from you, that hematocrit enhancers should be just part of training...Yes/No?
                    From that, do we just blood test the night before the race, and say that anyone under 50 can run, no matter how they got there? I don't know the exact definition of Draconian, but that seems to be post-Draconian to me....
                    Hey, why train so much?......just enhance your hematocrit level with these drugs, and you are good to go...wow, sign me up - not !!! Ughhh....I hate that thought, and I hate the fact that people involved with our sport can even consider that approach...I'm not hopelessly naive, I know that happens, but I still hate it....

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pego
                      Originally posted by rasb
                      Originally posted by 2 cents
                      Yeah, the problem is track and field is permeated with too much integrity. That is the problem. Get real. I believe the much bigger issue is that most spectators find the sport boring. You're kidding yourselves if you believe that PEDs are the biggest issue. The people need bread and circuses, and I believe they'll take their circuses with performance-enhanced performers. Many people find soccer boring, and I don't believe they've been stigmatized with drug scandals, have they?
                      Could you please re-state your main point --- I'm missing it here...
                      Is anyone suggesting that we ignore PED's? Or downplay their role in our sport, or sweep them under the rug? Or encourage our kids to win at all costs, and cheat if you can get away with it?
                      Our PEDs rules are too Draconian. Look at Gatlin's case. Even two years for the first offense are harsh, what he got was an equivalent of life for a steroid offense and an his own administrative mistake as a teenager. Every other sport would dismiss the first transgression.
                      We treat stimulants as a big deal. We treat hematocrit enhancers as a big deal. We punish people for marijuana (not even a PED).
                      Zat0pek paints the picture in black-and-white (he represents a zero tolerance crowd). Modafinil should not be considered on par with "a pact with the devil" There is a middle ground.
                      You are right of course, but you are missing the real root cause that 2 cents alluded to. Track can not afford to (as Speedfirst advocated) be leiniant on the athletes, use spin to help the image, etc, because the sport does not have the popularity, fanbase, excitement, interest, that baseball has. Track's biggest problem will never be PED use. The biggest problem is that the sport is boring to many people. Now, maybe this can never be solved, but I personally think that it can. We just need fresh ideas. We need athletes with fanbases. We need exciting one off races, duel meets with meaningful competition, night meets in big stadiums in HD, rivalries, unique events, better use of advertising, fill in the blanks with your ideas. This is not selling out to the mainstream. We want to see these things was well.

                      This effects the PED issue in that track, and it's athletes (by and large), can not withstand a PED scandal like baseball because baseball has an exciting game to lure people back in, and track just has erased records and a big meet every 4 years. Once we get some fresh things going with the sport, we can withstand with PED use like baseball has.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        and you hit it...BORING

                        BORING...BORING....BORING.....
                        HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A TRACK MEET NOW DAYS? YAWN....YAWN....YAWN....NO SHELTER...HEAT...CONCESSIONS ARE USUALLY MISERABLE...THE PROGRAM ON SALE DOES NOT RIVAL THE 1975 CIF MEET PROGRAMS....

                        Home Depot? Hell, why not run a meet in hell. I keep getting the defense of the Penn Relays...sorry pal...does not fly...one meet...entrenched...Pepsi was entrenched, Sunkist was entrenched, Modesto was entrenched, ....dont give me one meet...give me answers...

                        I can tell you the answer. Get track out of Indy. Move it to LA and NY corporate offices... Hire product placement firms and licensing.

                        Track is dead.
                        Wolfie Lives

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by rasb
                          So, pego, putting aside for the moment Gatlin, marijuana, etc....
                          You seem to be suggesting in this post, and in others that I have read from you, that hematocrit enhancers should be just part of training...Yes/No?
                          From that, do we just blood test the night before the race, and say that anyone under 50 can run, no matter how they got there? I don't know the exact definition of Draconian, but that seems to be post-Draconian to me....
                          Hey, why train so much?......just enhance your hematocrit level with these drugs, and you are good to go...wow, sign me up - not !!! Ughhh....I hate that thought, and I hate the fact that people involved with our sport can even consider that approach...I'm not hopelessly naive, I know that happens, but I still hate it....
                          I checked an unqualified "Yes". Here is why. There are many ways to raise one's hematocrit, from "perfectly natural" (high altitude training), to "almost natural" (pressurized chambers), to "questionably natural" (transfusion - even that has grades from a more "natural" auto to a little less "natural" allo), to pharmacological (EPO and related compounds). It can be done legally, pretty safely under strict medical supervision, or as it is now, "in the dark alley" when all sorts of charlatans pretend that they know what they are doing and risk the lives of athletes (mostly cyclist, long distance runners, skiers, swimmers, name it).

                          Is it a PED? I suppose it is, but there are many "natural" PEDs. Intensive training, specific diets improve people above their equally talented peers. Intensive training is also not "perfectly natural". You rip muscles, tendons, suffer from heat strokes, develop exercise asthma, exertion headaches, irritable bowel disorders, etc.

                          BTW, the only PEDs I would strictly enforce are steroids and HGH.
                          "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                          by Thomas Henry Huxley

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Pego:

                            Alan Simpson and speed/uppers dies on Mt Ventoux; why are they not in the banned category, although the line with Ritalin makes it harder to be clear.

                            Also, with the methods to improve hematocrit, some are 'slow' and others are fast. It seems that it is hard to raise the levels to dangerous values without what are thought of as PEDs. Or is my notion of dangerously high meatocrit flawed (it might be)?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 26mi235
                              Pego:

                              Alan Simpson and speed/uppers dies on Mt Ventoux; why are they not in the banned category, although the line with Ritalin makes it harder to be clear.

                              Also, with the methods to improve hematocrit, some are 'slow' and others are fast. It seems that it is hard to raise the levels to dangerous values without what are thought of as PEDs. Or is my notion of dangerously high meatocrit flawed (it might be)?
                              Yes, high level endurance events carry risks. Some die after speed, some without (Ryan Shay was clean as can be AFAIK).

                              Yes, hematocrit can be raised to dangerous levels. That is, why I emphasized strict medical supervision which can only be achieved in legal, controlled environment.
                              "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                              by Thomas Henry Huxley

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Pego, thanks for bringing a medical professional's cool detachment to this contentious subject.

                                Comment

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