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  • #16
    Originally posted by eldrick
    it is produced with recombinant technology from plant DNA or somesuch

    they look for plant DNA in the testo - if they find it - you've doped

    this was basis for gatlin case
    What exactly do you mean here? I'm assuming you've made a typo? I'm assuming they would look for a different unmodified version of TET by mass spectrometry not looking for traces of DNA from the source.

    Also, with regard to the TET/epi-TET ratio, is that relevent in this case? I'm assuming the implication is this is endogenous TET because of all the references to "intersex". If so, the meaning of this without a genetic test is difficult to know.

    One possibility has been discussed in another thread, i.e. AIS (she has a Y, has high levels of TET, but has a limited response to it due to a defective TET receptor). This is a real grey zone since at what point does the limited response give an unfair advantage. I know the IAAF allows females that have a receptor that is practically non function but have no idea how they determine this. Obviously each unique mutation will vary with regard to the amount of function.

    Another possibility is that she is XX but has a functional SRY gene due to a rare recombination between the X and Y chromosome in here father. This would mean can make TET, and it would be beneficial but she would be missing the other Y genes important for male specification. Actually in this case, I'm not even sure she would be female with regard to anatomy so this might not even be a possibility.

    In short, there will be no quick answer in this case unless she is taking exogenous TET.

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    • #17
      Assuming that Semenya does indeed suffer from an intersex condition, the most likely one seems to be 5 alpha reductase deficiency not androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS). This deficiency stops testosterone being converted to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and thus impacts on foetal development by not being able to change foetal development from the default female development path. The end result is a 46XY male with an apparent female body at birth.

      The generally clearly female genitalia leads to just about every sufferer to be brought up female. However, at puberty, the internal testes start producing testosterone but the masculinising effects are limited because DHT is the primary androgen required for this process. Depending on the degree of virilisation, some take on male roles and some stay as female in societies without western levels of medical support.

      While males normally have an advantage over females due to increase EPO production, this condition is unlikely to provide this male benefit as the Testosterone to DHT conversion is missing and this is the key chemical pathway required.

      This condition seems to fit the facts - (assumed) female genitalia and played with dolls as child but in teens became more focussed on male activities with mild virilisation and non-female levels of testosterone.

      A very unfortunate situation as she does not receive all the performance benefits of being male (female levels of EPO), so is unlikely to ever be competitive in male competitions but appears to be at the outer edge of female performance due to direct effects of high levels of testosterone. We should note that at this stage she is at a level already achieved by 46XX women.

      Disclaimer: The above is a very simple explanation and like most things there are variations upon variations, which is why these assessments take a long time.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by cacique
        as i said, all they have to say is, is she eligible or not? that's a yes or no question.

        all other details should be privileged information.
        eh ?

        you clearly aren't familiar with cas adjudications where they all end up

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        • #19
          Originally posted by cacique
          as i said, all they have to say is, is she eligible or not? that's a yes or no question.

          all other details should be privileged information.
          eh ?

          you clearly aren't familiar with cas adjudications where they all end up

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by El Toro
            A very unfortunate situation as she does not receive all the performance benefits of being male (female levels of EPO), so is unlikely to ever be competitive in male competitions but appears to be at the outer edge of female performance due to direct effects of high levels of testosterone. We should note that at this stage she is at a level already achieved by 46XX women.
            This does sound like a good candidate, and the grey area here highlights the difficulty the IAAF has in these cases. Possibly Pego, I think it was he who stated this, is correct in saying that it might be simpler just to go with XX (with no SRY) as the passport for the female division while the open division is for all. These grey area cases are always going to be controversial.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by polevaultpower
              The analysis on Semenya’s testosterone levels was carried out in South Africa and it is understood this information contributed to the IAAF’s decision to request the South African federation carry out a detailed “gender verification” test on the athlete.
              Is there a limit to how much testosterone can be in the female body to be legal with WADA, or is it only artificial testosterone that is banned?
              Last I checked, the rules restricted the T/E ratio to 4:1. I don't know if that applies to natural or artificial testosterone or both.

              I hope they got baby pictures. I did say this is going to get ugly.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                A source close to the investigation into the 800 metres gold medallist has confirmed that tests carried out before the start of the World Championships indicated that the runner had three times the normal female level of testosterone in her body.

                She's three times a lady?
                That would keep her under the maximum allowable of 4x, wouldn't it? And have I missed anything, or have they determined that she is a typical XX female or a rare XXY female?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                  rare XXY female
                  Probably not this as there are only three documented cases. I think this came up in another thread. Also, as pego keeps reminding us, such aneuploids are rarely athletic.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Daisy
                    Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                    rare XXY female
                    Probably not this as there are only three documented cases. I think this came up in another thread. Also, as pego keeps reminding us, such aneuploids are rarely athletic.
                    Only three? I knew it was extremely rare but not THAT extreme.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                      Originally posted by Daisy
                      Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                      rare XXY female
                      Probably not this as there are only three documented cases. I think this came up in another thread. Also, as pego keeps reminding us, such aneuploids are rarely athletic.
                      Only three? I knew it was extremely rare but not THAT extreme.
                      He's talking about XXY with female body. XXY is normally male and there are a lot more than three instances.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by El Toro
                        He's talking about XXY with female body. XXY is normally male and there are a lot more than three instances.
                        Yes, I meant XXY with female body. The comment with regard to unathleticism though was in general, including male XXY's too. I pressume the unathleticism is due to the higher dose of some genes on the extra X conflicting with those expressed on the Y.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Daisy
                          Originally posted by El Toro
                          He's talking about XXY with female body. XXY is normally male and there are a lot more than three instances.
                          Yes, I meant XXY with female body. The comment with regard to unathleticism though was in general, including male XXY's too. I pressume the unathleticism is due to the higher dose of some genes on the extra X conflicting with those expressed on the Y.
                          I knew what you meant the first time. I also knew that there are many XXY males. But I didn't think the rarity of XXY females (only 3) was that extreme.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CookyMonzta
                            But I didn't think the rarity of XXY females (only 3) was that extreme.
                            I should clarify, i found three cases in the literature. Each was discussed as an unusual case. This implies it is an extremely rare condition but does not preclude that other cases exist. The three papers did not discuss the actual frequency in the population and I don't know that percentage.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TrackDaddy
                              We older posters remember those East German teams of the 70s and 80s.

                              And not to be rude but Semenya's appearance is certainly somewhat reminiscent of that.
                              Can you be more specific? I can't think of any East German female athletes who would look like this.
                              Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Personally, I think it is wonderful to hear the debate and discussion from medical experts, one of which I am not.
                                So, just from the coaching side of things, the progression is so far off the top of the scale, there is no way to rationalize the performance.
                                For those who wish to compare Bolt and his performances, don't forget how fast he was running at 15 and 16 years of age, many years ago.
                                Even Mary Decker who ran 2:02 - 2:03 as a 15 year old, never got faster than 1:56 something, years later.
                                An 18 year old female, improving to 1:56 so quickly, and looking as though she might run 1:53 or so, if anybody was capable of pushing her, is not possible, under our current male/female delineations. I believe we are in the process of breaking new ground here.

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