Tests Say Semenya An Hermaphrodite? [split]

[lonewolf]

Usually, I can resolve ( to my own satisfaction, anyway) the proper decision in most dilemmas but this one is waaayyyyy "beyond my pay grade."
I have great empathy for this young person who, through not fault of his/her own or apparent intent to deceive, is placed in an embarassing international spotlight concerning what should be a very private matter.
I can't solve this one.

[TrackDaddy]

TD, shut your mouth, before you know all the facts. you just don't learn, do you?

Of course at this point we are making the assumption that the info given in the article is correct, since we have nothing else to go by. Under this assumption, TD is right, it does seem cut and dried to me as well.

Thank you, Powell.

I was only voicing my opinion based on the information that is available.

[TrackDaddy]

I can't solve this one.

Don't worry, jenjen can. :roll:

[lonewolf]

Whew!

[jenjen8765]

Ouch. No, I can't. It would either require system change in our sex/gender categories (not a one-person project), and it's going to be C.S.'s to work out in any case. Hope s/he's got some people in her corner because this is such complicated territory.

[cacique]

If you could make Yvonne Buschbaum, a biological female, into a male, this seems like a child's play in today's level of reproductive surgery.

well, pego, that's not totally true. one of the frustrations that FTM transgender men (females who transition into male) have is that you cannot build a penis out of skin grafts or transplants. it's much easier for a MTF to become female. there's still no satisfactory solution for such men in terms of acquiring new genitalia.

also, i thought that there are "functional" women out there who have undescended, internal testis, and look and live their whole lives as women. i guess the difference with semenya here is that they don't produce much testosterone.

PVP is right. i think there's a lot of assumptions here. no one knows what semenya thinks of herself or wants to do. surgery? chemical castration? maybe she doesn't want to have any of it. why are we making all these assumptions?

[Vault-emort]

Even rocket science isn't rocket science if you're willing to slog through it, and this isn't rocket science.

this is such complicated territory.

Erm...are you a professor of contradiction?

[elcaballo]

I recommende the works of Anne Fausto-Sterling and Alice Domurat-Dreger to help with your thinking in this area.

Much obliged for the names jenjen, and your generous offer to to "help my thinking" ...

But social gender identity is a completely separate issue to that of whether she should have been allowed to compete at the world championships in women's races.

I'd be massively surprised if anyone here had any objections to what gender Caster chooses to identify with. But as numerous people have mentioned, given that it's elitie-level (as opposed to purely participatory) sport the question of sex has to be based on physiology alone. Otherwise the idea having restricted women's races is rendered meaningless .....

[Al in NYC]

[Do you have data supporting your claim that sex tests have been administered to hundreds or people by athletic organisations?

Huh? Mandatory gender testing was done for several decades (I believe from the mid-60s to the mid-90s) on female athletes in Olympic sports. It was a matter of policy and hardly a secret. Google it.

[croflash]

Somewhere lost in the middle of the article is this line:

The IAAF expects to receive the full set of medical results this week.

Doesn't that actually imply that the IAAF hasn't gotten the results yet ? Or is the exchange of information between the laboratory and IAAF going back and forth in this case ?

There have been far too many rumors along the way to consider this article definite and conclusive.

[jenjen8765]

It's complicated for C.S: what sex to select? social gender? what does this mean for sexual preference? If the report is true, what does it mean for C.S.' hopes for a family (there are all sorts of 'real families' not bound by biology, but what has she hoped for?) The biology isn't that complicated: the decisions are, even to do nothing, because of the necessity of stuffing human variation into two unambiguous categories.

And I have no idea if there are local/cultural/religious issues to be navigated: trans/intersex kids in the U.S. face bullying and assault, and if/how is SA generally (and C.S.'s immediate cultural milieu) different? More welcoming? Less?

So no, I'm not a professor of contradition, I'm a professor of science and technology studies.

[Ned Ryerson]

[quote=Al in NYC]

[Do you have data supporting your claim that sex tests have been administered to hundreds or people by athletic organisations?

Huh? Mandatory gender testing was done for several decades (I believe from the mid-60s to the mid-90s) on female athletes in Olympic sports. It was a matter of policy and hardly a secret. Google it.[/quote:1yzcbg45]

Every single woman who competed in each of the twelve Olympic Games from 1968 to 1988 underwent a gynecological examine to determine their sex? I know many had cheek swabs to test for chromosomes, but that's hardly invasive as you had suggested.

[Vault-emort]

I know many had cheek swabs to test for chromosomes, but that's hardly invasive as you had suggested.

In at least 1968 (and possibly 72) there were physical examinations as well. And from all accounts, they were quite invasive. Raelene Boyle described them as 'a grope'

[bman]

Two thoughts: 1, her test/epi-test ratio is reportedly well within the limit, yet the supposed advantage of her condition is that she has male sex organs that produce too much testosterone. Can someone explain this to me?

2, the explanation of this is exactly like an article I read (unrelated to Semenya) when this whole deal came out shortly after the final. In the article it said that woman (with whatever it was called) don't realize their situation (because they have external female genitalia) until later in life when they fail to menstruate and go to a doctor asking what is up, at which time they learn thet they have internal testes, no uterus, etc. The article went on to say that the usual course of action is to remove the testes (and go on some sort of drug to compensate for the missing hormones), and to stretch the vagina which is usually to short for comfortable intercourse. This seems like her situation, but it is in direct contrast to what Pego said, so I guess I am confused on that point as well.

[Pego]

Dang, Pego. ! If I may interject a typical TV interviewer question, how does it feel to have an entire medical career invalidated.?

Well lonewolf, jenjen8765 is a professor of science and technology studies. He/she sent me to Wiki to get started. CS's case is also a simple issue of gender identification, not a complex biology.
And, oh yes, knowledge that I have been laborously acquiring over the past 53 years is not "rocket science".

I feel so much better now.