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Washington Redskins losing their name?

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  • #16
    Just don't mess with devils. I was a Blue Devil in both high school and college !

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Marlow
      Originally posted by lonewolf
      I did get pretty fed up with the tom-toms, the chants
      The tomahawk chop (which the Atlanta Braves also use) and the chant that goes with it, woo-oo-oo-oo-oo, does indeed get exceedingly tiresome!
      That idiotic chop, plus Bobby, how can one not hate them :evil: :twisted: :evil: ?
      "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
      by Thomas Henry Huxley

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Pego
        That idiotic chop, plus Bobby, how can one not hate them :evil: :twisted: :evil: ?
        Hate Bobby??!! He's the good-ol-boyest good-ol-boy of anyone, dagnabbit !!

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        • #19
          Re: Washington Redskins losing their name?

          Originally posted by lonewolf
          I am proud of my Comanche/Creek/Choctaw heritage and personally never felt insulted or demeaned by the many Oklahoma High Schools and Colleges ( or elsewhere) who were proud to be Redskins, Savages, Warriors, Indians, Chiefs, Apaches, Kiowas, Comanches or some other tribal name.

          In my generation, at least, these were interpreted as compliments to a proud tradition of athleticism, strength, fighting spirit, tenacity, perseverance, ferocity, competivness ..etc...all good traits, IMO.
          Lonewolf

          If you don't mind me asking, how is "Redskin" or "Savage" interpreted as (a) compliment(s) to a proud tradition of athleticism, strength, fighting spirit, tenacity, perseverance, ferocity, competivness ?

          I can sort of see how it may be seen as that with a tribal name like Comanche or a name like Warrior etc...But Redskin and Savage? I'm not sure those fit into the same category since the intent may be derogatory unlike Chiefs or Apaches for example.

          Did you know that the Declaration of Independence refers to Indians as "Savages" (barbaric) and it's not at all intended in a "complimentary" way?

          I hate to second guess an indian but I must ask, with all do respect... do you formally identify yourself or look like an indian? What about the indian friends you know who feel that being called a savage is a badge of honor? Are they indians or people who you wouldnt know were indians until they tell you they have indian ancestors?

          I ask because here you're sort of speaking for all indians although I understand thats not your intent. Do you really believe that most indians don't mind the names Redskins or Savages?
          The fool has said...there is no God. Psa 14

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          • #20
            If you change it, at least have a sense of humor.

            Adams State used to be called "The Indians." I swear to God, NO ONE used the nickname outside of football. Not that it was controversial (in the late '80's)...just that "ASC!-ASC!-ASC!" was easier and tons cooler to chant.

            Nonetheless, when Adams State decided to change the nickname, they went with "The Grizzlies."

            Many boomers will--perhaps fondly--remember the '70's television show "The Life and Times of Grizzly Adams", based on the true life of the Mountain Man.


            Hey, pun-wise it could have been worse: In the early '90's the CC team used to call themselves "The Adams (s) Family"--!

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            • #21
              Track Daddy, I don't think I have to defend my opinion but I believe all the named adjectives are descriptive of Savages, Braves and Warriors. I tried to made it clear I was speaking for myself. I would not presume to speak for all or any other Indian. I said Indians of my acquaintance, many of whom played on teams with Indian names, do not express disapproval of such names and, in fact, take pride in being Savages and Braves. How better to be a badass than to be a Savage? Isn't that the whole point?
              I do know the Declaration of Independence refers to Indians as "savages", which was pretty descriptive of the behaviour of both sides in the bloody wars accompanying displacement of the Indians. Also, Indians undoubtably lacked the social graces and formal education of genteel Europeans and I believe this predjudice factored into their characterization of the natives.
              I am not going to argue semantics or the interpreted significance of one mascot name over another. I suspect those choosing those names several generations ago did not consult a thesaurus or dictionary.
              Do I look like an Indian? What does an Indian look like? My "dirty blond" son looks like his maternal German ancestors. My youngest daugher looks like a Choctaw Indian princess. I am not a full blood, sterotype with a war bonnet. Neither I, nor anyone I have ever met, introduce themselves by declaring their genetic lineage. Like most mixed blood, and full bloods with the right attitude, I fit in pretty much anywhere I want to fit in. My Indian friends come in all degrees of "Indianess" Some would be perfect on a buffalo nickel, some are blue-eyed blondes.
              If your premise is that opinion would be influenced by how "Indian" one looks, you would be wrong. Some of the "buffalo nickel" Indians are fellow track officials, a few wear their hair long, in braids or single "pony tail". They are not squeamish about it and are among the most supportive of Indian themed mascots.
              My amateur psychological opinion is that some Indians who object to use of Indian themes may have some, perhaps unrecognized, inferiority complex about being Indian. Or they live in a setting where it is less acceptable to be Indian. Or, maybe they have been reading the dictionary. There could be as many reasons as people.

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              • #22
                Re: Washington Redskins losing their name?

                Originally posted by TrackDaddy
                Do you really believe that most indians don't mind the names Redskins or Savages?
                Most Indians Say Name of Washington “Redskins” Is Acceptable While 9 Percent Call It Offensive, Annenberg Data Show

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                • #23
                  lonewolf

                  I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive, friend,. I was only inquiring about your position and how you developed it.

                  Thank you for your response.

                  I'd like to add however that I disgree that an indian who's offended by the names "Savage or Redskin" is offended because of an "inferiority complex."

                  See its one thing for a mascot name to be a position, animal or thing. But when who or what you inherently are is labled by the dominant culture as a mascot in a potentially negative way, then I believe the potential for it to be offensive is greater.

                  That said, if we removed or changed all the indian mascot names then it would be like removing yet another reminder to the general public of them and their heritage here. Not many reminders are left as it is.
                  The fool has said...there is no God. Psa 14

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lonewolf
                    My amateur psychological opinion is that some Indians who object to use of Indian themes may have some, perhaps unrecognized, inferiority complex about being Indian. Or they live in a setting where it is less acceptable to be Indian. Or, maybe they have been reading the dictionary. There could be as many reasons as people.
                    I believe I remember you writing a while back that Native Americans in Oklahoma have historically been treated a lot better than those in other parts of the country, such as North Dakota for example. I work with a woman from North Dakota and she says that the bigotry towards Native Americans there is still very prevalent even amongst some of her relatives. I would think that Native Americans who are still catching that kind of hell today might be more sensitive to these things that those like yourself who have always been able to assimilate.

                    I have another co-worker who is a second-generation Italian-American, whose grandparents were actually Corleone, Sicily. And while he would prefer that people not use ethnic slurs such a dago, wop, guinea, etc., he doesn't react when he does hear them. However, he says that his father comes completely unglued when he hears these slurs, and he attributes it to the fact that his father grew up in a time when bigotry against Italian-Americans was still very prevalent.

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                    • #25
                      Can't disagree with anything you say jazz. I believe I acknowledged the existence of societies less benign for Indians and the likelihood they would be differently motivated.
                      Certainly, susequent generations are going to react differently to racial terminology and I do not deny that some racial slurs were/are deliberate.

                      I believe racial discrimination comes from two directions. Those who somehow consider themselves elite and better than some other segment of society and those less confident and less successful who feel the need to have someone look down on and blame for their own station in life.
                      Obviously, both these attitudes are frequently ingrained from birth and passed on to succeeding generations, thus continued prejudice from on high and low.
                      I don't have a solution .... for anyone else..

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                      • #26
                        http://volsvideos.com/view/75/tennessee ... ator-bowl/

                        Someone linked these highlights of the Tennessee-Syracuse game from '66 and I couldn't believe the Indian chief mascot for Syracuse. And they were called the Orangemen back then. Can you imagine in this day and age??? Wow.

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                        • #27
                          From what I understand, a real indian wouldn't mind.
                          The fool has said...there is no God. Psa 14

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                          • #28
                            When OU had the "Little Red" mascot it was a highly coveted position and you had to be an Injun.

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                            • #29
                              I would fully support the Cleveland Indians going back to being the Spiders.

                              My wife works at McMurry University here in Abilene. Just a few years ago we were the McMurry Indians, but that was shut down. Now they have stupidly nicknamed themselves Nation. Ugh......
                              You there, on the motorbike! Sell me one of your melons!

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                              • #30
                                Where I used to teach the team moniker is Warriors, with a lot of Native Americian graphics thrown into the mix on programs, uniforms, publications, murals, etc, ad nauseum. Last year one kid objected on grounds that he was part Native American and the school board voted 3-2 to abandon the name and imagery, thus setting off a months-long shitstorm in a small community.

                                A recall petition was circulated, hundreds of kids and alumi marched and chanted and a series of contentious board meetings with hundreds attending and a dozen deputies there to keep the peace followed. Eventually a board member resigned, families were divided by the issue, and people claiming to be Native Americans were vocal, emotionally charged advocates for each side.

                                To me, after 30-plus years of coaching and teaching there, the whole thing seemed ludicrous. A rational person on either side of the controversy should have been able to say, Well, I am offended by the idea of exploiting American Indian imagery, but on the grand scale of things in the world it is not a very big deal; or, conversely, despite decades of tradition involving Native American iconography, changing the name and graphics is hardly a world-shaking turn of events, either. BFD, either way. . . a lot of tempest in a pot of tea.

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