Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Collapse

Unconfigured Ad Widget

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."

    I understand the appeal of trying to have your body "build" its own defenses from the ground up. But a lot of the time it can't do that right off the bat (as evidenced by countless epidemic and endemic infections that have been wiped out/severely reduced in the industrialized nations).

    If you get hit with a bug your body has never seen, you can have a "strong immune system" but still be completely blindsided by said bug. Now, if you've been inoculated against it, you've already armed yourself.

    Consider the difference between passive and active immunity. Both have their place, but much/most of what immunizations do is confer active immunity, which is akin to teaching a man how to fish BEFORE he begins to starve to death.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by SQUACKEE
      I'll take my chances....
      The major medical principle you don't appear to understand here is that if it were just about YOU, then your stance would be fine. But if you catch it (or even if you don't; you can always be a carrier without being symptomatic), you then risk passing it on to other people, and if they're "rugged individualists" like you, then the whole thing snowballs.

      I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.

      Particularly with a serious disease, not a take-two-aspirin-and-call-me-in-the-morning one.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by BisonHurdler
        I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."

        Perhaps it's better to think of your immune system like your cardiovscular system. When you exercise, you tax your cardiovscular system, and in the process it becomes stronger and more efficient. Similarly, when you get sick your immune system is kicked into action, repelling the invading organism, also becoming stronger in the process. When humans turn to vaccines to prevent disease, and drugs to fight it's effects, it's much like riding a bike for exercise, but tying a rope to a car in front.

        As I said, I'm not dismissing vaccines or drug therapy when it comes to life threatening ailments, or certain high risk groups. But aside from those circumstances, you're better off just risking being sick for a few days when you consider the long term benefits of a vibrant immune system.
        There are no strings on me

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by guru
          Originally posted by BisonHurdler
          I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."

          Perhaps it's better to think of your immune system like your cardiovscular system. When you exercise, you tax your cardiovscular system, and in the process it becomes stronger and more efficient. Similarly, when you get sick your immune system is kicked into action, repelling the invading organism, also becoming stronger in the process. When humans turn to vaccines to prevent disease, and drugs to fight it's effects, it's much like riding a bike for exercise, but tying a rope to a car in front.

          As I said, I'm not dismissing vaccines or drug therapy when it comes to life threatening ailments. But aside from those circumstances, you're better off just risking being sick for a few days when you consider the long term benefits of a vibrant immune system.

          I disagree. Your analogy really only works if all we're doing is injecting IgG into people.

          I DO consider the long term benefits of a vibrant immune system. That's why I get vaccinated.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by gh
            Originally posted by guru
            ...

            Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

            http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm
            Sorry, but I place osteopaths right up there with phrenologists in the level of medical quackery.

            Ask a real doctor.

            edited to note that I hyperbolized in my original post; it's homeopaths who are with phrenologists; osteopaths are on a slightly lesser level of hell
            Actually, E. Garry, osteopaths are now fairly close to Western doctors. Many of them do standard residencies after they finish osteopathic college. I'm interviewing a guy tomorrow for a job who did an orthopaedic residency after osteopathy school.

            We think you should get the vaccine if/when it becomes available. To not do so is playing with fire. Read about the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic sometime, if you don't think so. I certainly will get it, and fortunately, medical professionals are supposed to be first on the list to get it, so we can be around treat the victims of it. Having said that, and DrJay and pego can address this better than I, but the swine flu seems to be spreading a lot but not really killing as many as was postulated. (I know, I know, somebody will send me a link to somebody in Texas or Aqua Caliente who died - but a lot of people die from standard flu and that is never reported.)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by gh
              I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.
              That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.

              Comment


              • #37
                It's clear we are not going to see eye to eye on this Bison. I respect your stance, but respectfully disagree.

                All I know is my personal experience, having never been vaccinated beyond the early childhood regimen. Working around high school kids every day in Ohio winters I get sick maybe once every 3 or 4 years, and never take any medication during the illness. At 42 I plan to stick with what's worked.
                There are no strings on me

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by kuha
                  Originally posted by gh
                  I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.
                  That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.
                  Do youz guys think people should have a choice or should there be jail time for non-conformance?
                  phsstt!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                    Originally posted by kuha
                    Originally posted by gh
                    I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.
                    That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.
                    Do youz guys think people should have a choice or should there be jail time for non-conformance?
                    People clearly have all the choice in the world right now. We're simply commenting on the choices they make.

                    Are you in favor of jail time? Hanging in the public square?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by kuha
                      Originally posted by SQUACKEE
                      Originally posted by kuha
                      Originally posted by gh
                      I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.
                      That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.
                      Do youz guys think people should have a choice or should there be jail time for non-conformance?
                      People clearly have all the choice in the world right now. We're simply commenting on the choices they make.

                      Are you in favor of jail time? Hanging in the public square?
                      No, im pro choice doncha know!
                      phsstt!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by guru
                        Originally posted by BisonHurdler
                        I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."

                        Perhaps it's better to think of your immune system like your cardiovscular system. When you exercise, you tax your cardiovscular system, and in the process it becomes stronger and more efficient. Similarly, when you get sick your immune system is kicked into action, repelling the invading organism, also becoming stronger in the process. ...
                        Med student Bison can give you a better scientific answer than I, but since I took graduate-level immunology lo those many years ago, let me give you a really simple explanation of how this whole thing works.

                        You get a viral (or bacterial) infection and your immune system, hopefully, says, "holy shit, foreign proteinaceous body alert!" And it begins to build antibodies which bind to the surface of the offending particle and neutralize it.

                        In vacctionation, you're given some form of the same bacteria/virus, but one that has been modified so it doesn't cause the disease. Your immune system says, "holy shit, foreign proteinaceous body alertl" And it beings to build...... exactly the same process.

                        How does this prevent a "vibrant" immune system?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by guru
                          Originally posted by Marlow
                          so much for evolution!! ;-)

                          You wouldn't want to be the person born after several generations of ancestors who were vaccinated for every bug that came along. Trust me.
                          No, I won't trust you guru. Don't get mad at me ( again ! ) but I think the shots should be taken.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by gh
                            How does this prevent a "vibrant" immune system?
                            I think the problem here is that when people read immune suppression it is interpreted, and marketed by naturopaths, as meaning "significantly" weakened. Personally, I doubt that is the case.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by guru
                              It's clear we are not going to see eye to eye on this Bison. I respect your stance, but respectfully disagree.

                              All I know is my personal experience, having never been vaccinated beyond the early childhood regimen. Working around high school kids every day in Ohio winters I get sick maybe once every 3 or 4 years, and never take any medication during the illness. At 42 I plan to stick with what's worked.
                              Let's see. Where should I get my medical advice. Oh, I know, I'll go to a track and field site and listen to advice from some guy with no formal relevant medical training who refuses to wear a helmet when riding a bike. Thanks for the tips, dude!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bad hammy
                                Let's see. Where should I get my medical advice. Oh, I know, I'll go to a track and field site and listen to advice from some guy with no formal relevant medical training who refuses to wear a helmet when riding a bike. Thanks for the tips, dude!
                                Gosh, that would be as silly as letting some T&F dodo explain to me why California is so effed up!

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X