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  • #46
    In an attempt to not come off flippant and condescending to guru, I will concede that there is evidence suggesting that growing up in areas that are traditionally "dirty" (a very loose definition, but think farms/rural areas) tends to confer a more favorable response in later years as far as allergies go (for fellow nerds following along at home, think Th1 CD4 dominated immune response vs. Th2 . . . same principle behind tuberculoid vs. lepromatous leprosy).

    Basically, people who are exposed to more "dirt" (and again, I don't know if this has been formally defined somewhere, so I apologize) at a young age do tend to have fewer allergic responses to environmental allergens.

    But as far as any type of bacterial/fungal/viral pathogens, I maintain my stance with regards to immunizations.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by bad hammy
      Originally posted by guru
      It's clear we are not going to see eye to eye on this Bison. I respect your stance, but respectfully disagree.

      All I know is my personal experience, having never been vaccinated beyond the early childhood regimen. Working around high school kids every day in Ohio winters I get sick maybe once every 3 or 4 years, and never take any medication during the illness. At 42 I plan to stick with what's worked.
      Let's see. Where should I get my medical advice. Oh, I know, I'll go to a track and field site and listen to advice from some guy with no formal relevant medical training who refuses to wear a helmet when riding a bike. Thanks for the tips, dude!

      Allow me to restate the first line of my paragraph, with slightly larger font since they say eyesight is often the first to go in advanced age -

      All I know is my personal experience
      There are no strings on me

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by guru
        Originally posted by bad hammy
        Originally posted by guru
        It's clear we are not going to see eye to eye on this Bison. I respect your stance, but respectfully disagree.

        All I know is my personal experience, having never been vaccinated beyond the early childhood regimen. Working around high school kids every day in Ohio winters I get sick maybe once every 3 or 4 years, and never take any medication during the illness. At 42 I plan to stick with what's worked.
        Let's see. Where should I get my medical advice. Oh, I know, I'll go to a track and field site and listen to advice from some guy with no formal relevant medical training who refuses to wear a helmet when riding a bike. Thanks for the tips, dude!

        Allow me to restate the first line of my paragraph, with slightly larger font since they say eyesight is often the first to go in advanced age -

        All I know is my personal experience

        Noted and respected; however, this is the problem that underlies the bigger issue: many people take this stance, and as explained earlier, if someone has never seen a measles epidemic, as far as they're concerned that disease doesn't exist.

        So why immunize?

        [Answer: because in the first half of 2008 there were 64 deaths due to measles in the US, 63 of whom were not vaccinated against it]


        I understand your stance pertains more to adult vaccinations, but the principle is essentially the same. It's just much much more worrisome when people adopt your stance in regards to childhood vaccinations.

        Comment


        • #49
          And by the way Mr. Hammy, I do have two years of pre-med college, and currently own a business in the medical field(admittedly not in the field of immunology, but I'm also not an uninformed "some guy" when it comes to things medical).
          There are no strings on me

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by guru
            Originally posted by bad hammy
            Originally posted by guru
            It's clear we are not going to see eye to eye on this Bison. I respect your stance, but respectfully disagree.

            All I know is my personal experience, having never been vaccinated beyond the early childhood regimen. Working around high school kids every day in Ohio winters I get sick maybe once every 3 or 4 years, and never take any medication during the illness. At 42 I plan to stick with what's worked.
            Let's see. Where should I get my medical advice. Oh, I know, I'll go to a track and field site and listen to advice from some guy with no formal relevant medical training who refuses to wear a helmet when riding a bike. Thanks for the tips, dude!

            Allow me to restate the first line of my paragraph, with slightly larger font since they say eyesight is often the first to go in advanced age -

            All I know is my personal experience
            Guru, That's like saying I haven't had car insurance for thirty years and have never had an accident so haven't needed car insurance so won't purchase any now.

            Something like 36,000 people die of influenza-related complications each year in this country. The majority of those are elderly and/or have chronic problems like congestive heart failure, emphysema, etc. Those folks ceratainly should have an influenza vaccine. Younger healthy adults? May not be so important, and I don't know if any data exists proving "herd immunity" with the flu vaccine, i.e. guru gets the vaccine so I'm less likely to get influenza because there will be fewer cases out there.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by gh
              Originally posted by guru
              Originally posted by BisonHurdler
              I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."

              Perhaps it's better to think of your immune system like your cardiovscular system. When you exercise, you tax your cardiovscular system, and in the process it becomes stronger and more efficient. Similarly, when you get sick your immune system is kicked into action, repelling the invading organism, also becoming stronger in the process. ...
              Med student Bison can give you a better scientific answer than I, but since I took graduate-level immunology lo those many years ago, let me give you a really simple explanation of how this whole thing works.

              You get a viral (or bacterial) infection and your immune system, hopefully, says, "holy shit, foreign proteinaceous body alert!" And it begins to build antibodies which bind to the surface of the offending particle and neutralize it.

              In vacctionation, you're given some form of the same bacteria/virus, but one that has been modified so it doesn't cause the disease. Your immune system says, "holy shit, foreign proteinaceous body alertl" And it beings to build...... exactly the same process.

              How does this prevent a "vibrant" immune system?
              Well put. You are a smart guy.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by gh
                Originally posted by guru
                ...

                Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

                http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm
                Sorry, but I place osteopaths right up there with phrenologists in the level of medical quackery.

                Ask a real doctor.

                edited to note that I hyperbolized in my original post; it's homeopaths who are with phrenologists; osteopaths are on a slightly lesser level of hell
                My doctor....who is one of my partners....is a D.O. We have a lot of them in the Springs and they are as good as the M.D.s . Not many of them do manipulations (or whatever they call it) anymore. Their training is just about like that of M.D.s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Then I apologize if I'm tarring all DO's with too wide a brush. It's guys like Mercola who give the profession a bad name, but there are quack MD's as well, of course.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Hey, it's Jump On Guru time !

                    You "know by personal experience." ???? Is your one life case a valid statistical sample ? If one man has smoked like a chimney and never gotten cancer, does he know from personal experience that smoking should not be discouraged for others ??

                    And if I am wrong I apologize, but ( as alluded by someone else above ) are you the one who, a few years ago, stated that you refuse to wear a bike helmet, because you "know how to fall ?? " But then again if you have ridden a bike all these years, without a helmet, and have never fallen ( plus you know how to fall ) then do you recommend to others that they also should not/do not need to wear helmets ? So I repeat, are YOU a valid statistical sample for anything ???

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I don't know how this fits in here but I want to cast a vote for bicycle helmets.
                      I rode bikes for seventy years without acknowledging the need for helmets.
                      Three years ago, when my bum knee ended my jogging, so I could continue to exercise, my kids gave me, as an final combination Cristmas/birthday present, a 2 oz. road bike with about 56 gears, with the provision that I was to wear the accessory helmet.
                      This bike is capable of heretofore impossible speeds. On virtually my maiden outing, I was forced into a curb by a yard truck and took a header in an instant. I did not have time to think about "how to fall". Fortunately, I landed on a lush, manicured lawn, whacking my head HARD and suffering numerous bruises and abrasions. The bike was not damaged but I was. I managed to remount and ride the three miles home before rigor mortis set in. I was "stove up" for a week with a pulled groin and rib ouch.
                      The moral of this essay is: There has not be a reoccurence of this accident but if I had not been wearing a helmet for the (nearly) first time in my life, I might not have walked away.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DrJay
                        Something like 36,000 people die of influenza-related complications each year in this country. The majority of those are elderly and/or have chronic problems like congestive heart failure, emphysema, etc. Those folks ceratainly should have an influenza vaccine.

                        And that's exactly what I said earlier in this thread.

                        Originally posted by guru
                        As I said, I'm not dismissing vaccines or drug therapy when it comes to life threatening ailments, or certain high risk groups.
                        There are no strings on me

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Steve, a couple of things -

                          First, what does whether or not I wear a bike helmet have to do with the subject at hand? Perhaps we could also discuss the color of my shirt or how many pockets my cargo shorts have to determine the validity of my posts.

                          Second, I've stated some things in this thread you may not agree with. That's fine. But unlike Bisonhurdler you and Mr. Hammy decided to take the low road so I have no interest in discussing the topic with you as I did with Bison. If you have some personal issue with me that's bothering you feel free to PM me your email and we'll discuss that off the board.
                          There are no strings on me

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            From the data that I have been tracking it seems that the current H1N1 strain has a fatality rate similar to that of the seasonal flu. However, the years of life lost prematurely is much higher because instead of primarily being the death of old people who might have lived 1-10 years on average, many deaths are in young people that might live an order of magnitude longer.

                            Guru: What if you catch the disease and pass it on before becoming symptomatic and one of the persons that you pass it to dies?

                            The current variant of H1N1 is not particularly deadly but some strains of influenza in this family have been devastatingly deadly (e.g., 1918; which had a first round that was not very deadly but then evolved over the summer/fall (flu season in the southern hemisphere) into a very deadly disease.

                            The current H1N1 variant appears to be very transmissible; seemingly more so than the standard seasonal flu, but I am not sure (The Dells school district started having kids out and several days later had more than 200 out and closed all the schools because that were at about 40% infected.

                            By way of note, my wife is in the Industrial Engineering department at Wisconsin and works for DHS on risk and terrorism strategy issues. She has also done some pandemic planning work for the state. We will all get the H1N1 vaccines. We are not particularly concerned about the seasonal flu (normally get vaccine) but in the southern hemisphere the H1N1 strain so super-dominant (98% or more of all flu cases).

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by bambam1729
                              Actually, E. Garry, osteopaths are now fairly close to Western doctors.
                              OK, I'l admit I never quite understood the difference between an osteopath and a chiropractor, so I just looked it up and stumbled across this little snopes-like item:

                              http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2004/11/ ... ittle.html

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Plain and simple, Osteopaths these days are, for all intents and purposes, MDs with different letters after their names. The have the same curriculum as Allopathic (MD) students, with some extra "Osteopathic Musculoskeletal Manipulation" training added on top of it.

                                Some of the manipulation and such is pretty useful for musculoskeletal issues. Fewer and fewer are bothering with it for anything else (traditionally, Osteopathy has maintained that MSK adjustments could cure just about anything, similar to chiropractors).

                                They take the MCAT to get into Osteopathic medical schools (although the standards tend to be lower . . . I won't go into GPAs/MCAT scores that will mean little for most people here, but suffice it to say that the average GPA/MCAT score for an accepted MD student would put you at the very top of most DO schools), and they take similar licensing exams. In fact, most Allopathic (MD) residencies are open to DO students as long as they take the USMLE (the MD licensing exams) in addition to the DO's homologue, the COMLEX.

                                Anyway, sorry for the alphabet soup. The short and long of it is: Osteopaths are essentially on equal footing with MDs in most cases.

                                Comment

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