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  • George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

    compelling video w/ Rick Reilly on why The Boss should get short shrift.

    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5805237

  • #2
    Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

    As much as I dislike everything Steinbrenner stands for, he changed the face of latter 20th Century baseball more than anyone else. He's MLB's Al Davis and Jerry Jones, owners who did everything in their power to make their team a winner. The 'issues' Reilly raises are 'incidental' to a large degree. Pro sports is about winning at any cost and GS did that better than anyone else. NOT being in Cooperstown would be silly.

    BTW, it IS time for Pete Rose to get his bust too. I agreed with his earlier snubs, but now is the time to bury the hatchet in re Charlie Hustle. He LIVED the game and excelled at it, moreso than 90% of the people who are already there. Yeah, he effed up, but we all do at one time or another, and he bet ON his own team!

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    • #3
      Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

      4256 - in an age where 3000 is considered phenomenal

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      • #4
        Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

        Yes, Rose bet ON his own team, but it can be rightfully argued that since he did not bet on every game they played, but only on selected ones, that he would be more desirous of victory in the ones he bet on,,, which means conversely that he cared less about the others. This presumably could affect his managerial decisions regarding pitchers, etc.
        Plus, Rose approved the deal banning him permanently..... what does permanent mean if not permanent ?

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        • #5
          Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

          The Rose timeline:

          Rose's became player-manager of the Reds in August 1984.

          Rose's last day on the players roster was in November 1986.

          Rose manages his last game on August 21, 1989.

          Rose agreed to the lifetime ban from baseball on August 24, 1989. The ban covered everything under the purview of MLB, essentially no employment by a club. The ban had nothing to do with the hall of fame. Rose publicly denies gambling on baseball.

          In February 1991, the HoF board vote unanimously that players under suspension by MLB were ineligible for election to the HoF.

          On December 12, 2003, Rose publicly confirmed that he had bet on baseball while manager of the Reds.

          I've always been inclined toward a degree of leniency. But Rose continued the public lie for more than 14 years and three months. I think the 14+ years suspension until the time he publicly admitted his betting was enough time to serve as his penalty.

          Beyond that, however, I think he ought to serve an equal time for lying to the public that supported him throughout his career and for dishonoring the game.

          If he kept his nose clean, he'd then be eligible to be taken off MLB's permanently-suspended list in March 2017. If he were reinstated by MLB it would then be up to the HoF to decide what to do. If Bud Selig had made this announcement back in Dec. 2003, he'd have gotten himself off the hook for the constant questions he's had to face about Rose.

          = = =

          Oh, and just to counter claims about Rose not betting while he was a player: What we don't know is the day Rose first bet on baseball, but it is known that it was in 1985, when Rose was player-manager. This was in the Dowd report, which was later substantiated by Rose as being correct. So the fine line that some people draw between Rose the player and Rose the manager is a line that needn't be drawn.

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          • #6
            Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

            Originally posted by dukehjsteve
            Yes, Rose bet ON his own team, but it can be rightfully argued that since he did not bet on every game they played, but only on selected ones, that he would be more desirous of victory in the ones he bet on,,, which means conversely that he cared less about the others. This presumably could affect his managerial decisions regarding pitchers, etc.
            Plus, Rose approved the deal banning him permanently..... what does permanent mean if not permanent ?
            Beyond betting on his own team selectively, he also bet varying amounts. He'd also been a tipster in 1984, before he's known to have bet on the Reds himself.

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            • #7
              Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

              Originally posted by dukehjsteve
              which means conversely that he cared less about the others. This presumably could affect his managerial decisions regarding pitchers, etc.
              It's very difficult for me to believe someone as hyper-competitive as Rose would intentionally tank some of his games in an attempt to better the odds for the ones he was betting on. I think he just bet on the ones that he had inside information on as to why the line was favorable for betting on the Reds.

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              • #8
                Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

                Originally posted by Marlow
                Originally posted by dukehjsteve
                which means conversely that he cared less about the others. This presumably could affect his managerial decisions regarding pitchers, etc.
                It's very difficult for me to believe someone as hyper-competitive as Rose would intentionally tank some of his games in an attempt to better the odds for the ones he was betting on. I think he just bet on the ones that he had inside information on as to why the line was favorable for betting on the Reds.
                He's been shown to have varied his bets (or not bet) based on his (and the opponent's) starting pitcher. He also varied his bullpen usage in games on which he bet.

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                • #9
                  Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

                  Originally posted by dj
                  He also varied his bullpen usage in games on which he bet.
                  Not sure what that means because ALL managers tinker with their bullpens unceasingly, but If it turns out that he did indeed tank games he had not bet on, then it's much more serious than I had been led to believe. Even so . . . I think the statute of limitations should be up on his questionable ethics. Is it possible to pay restitution for something like this? Knowing him, I bet he kept records of all his dealings.

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                  • #10
                    Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

                    Originally posted by Marlow
                    Originally posted by dj
                    He also varied his bullpen usage in games on which he bet.
                    Not sure what that means because ALL managers tinker with their bullpens unceasingly, but If it turns out that he did indeed tank games he had not bet on, then it's much more serious than I had been led to believe. Even so . . . I think the statute of limitations should be up on his questionable ethics. Is it possible to pay restitution for something like this? Knowing him, I bet he kept records of all his dealings.
                    It's not that he tanked games, it's that he used everything at his disposal in games he'd bet on, and was less inclined to use his best relievers in the other games.

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                    • #11
                      Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

                      Originally posted by Marlow
                      Pro sports is about winning at any cost and GS did that better than anyone else. NOT being in Cooperstown would be silly.
                      You mean, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens should be inducted, too? :roll:

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                      • #12
                        Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

                        Originally posted by Marlow
                        As much as I dislike everything Steinbrenner stands for, he changed the face of latter 20th Century baseball more than anyone else....
                        So did Victor Conte. Oh wait, there's a difference, Steinbrenner was booted from baseball twice, Conte from track only once.

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                        • #13
                          Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

                          Originally posted by TN1965
                          Originally posted by Marlow
                          Pro sports is about winning at any cost and GS did that better than anyone else. NOT being in Cooperstown would be silly.
                          You mean, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens should be inducted, too? :roll:
                          No, because their records were artificially enhanced, leaving us with no factual evidence of 'how' good they were.

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                          • #14
                            Re: George Steinbrenner and Cooperstown

                            Originally posted by Marlow
                            Originally posted by TN1965
                            Originally posted by Marlow
                            Pro sports is about winning at any cost and GS did that better than anyone else. NOT being in Cooperstown would be silly.
                            You mean, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens should be inducted, too? :roll:
                            No, because their records were artificially enhanced, leaving us with no factual evidence of 'how' good they were.
                            Marlow, YOU are the one that utilized the phrase "at any cost" .

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