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  • the value of supplements [split]

    Originally posted by Marlow
    Drug-testing has gone so overboard that many things everyday people like us take for granted are BANNED for elite athletes..... We've had busts of people who thought they knew what was in a supplement and turns out there was a little 'extra'. Some of the banned 'stimulants' (as Pego has pointed out) are total nonsense....
    Your position is understandable, but now I'm gonna get beat up by Pego, bambam, and the others again. :wink:

    I think it would be better to place far stricter regulations on the supplement industry rather than to make current drug testing more lenient. Supplement manufacturers can get away with murder, since their products are considered to be food supplements rather than drugs and they don't have to prove safety, effectiveness, or even what's in the product. In theory they could even get away with requiring their employees to piss in the manufacturing mixing vats to avoid a loss in productivity due to restroom breaks, unless a customer got sick and complained to the FDA to start an investigation, or a disgruntled employee complained..

    I still haven't come over to the side that feels that many banned stimulants are total nonsense. For every study that shows a stimulant doesn't improve performance, there's frequently one that suggests it can. And whether evidence suggests that a stimulant can improve performance or not can also depend on whether a primarily anaerobic or a more endurance based aerobic exercise is involved in the study. There may be evidence that a particular stimulant may improve an endurance type performance but not a short burst energy type performance like a short sprint, and vice versa, so at times it can depend on what type of physical performance is being tested when it comes to the results on the performance enhancing ability of certain stimulants. Studies like this can also have many external influencing factors that could falsely affect the results.

    We've made progress in taking caffeine off the banned list, and in permitting medically therapeutic levels of ephedrine and several other stimulants that are used as nasal decongestants, including Sudafed, and I'm satisfied with changes like that. Until I see more evidence to the contrary, I'm still in favor of many stimulants being banned, not only because they might be able to enhance performance, but more importantly to protect the health of athletes. I might be in favor of creating more threshold levels though, so an athlete who last takes a stimulant legally during practice on Thursday doesn't face major sanctions for still having low levels in his or her system during a meet on Saturday...

  • #2
    Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

    Blues.

    The point is that elite athletes are paying the price, but that supplement companies have zero skin in this game.

    Their target audience is not Tyson Gay. He is just collateral damage here. In fact he's a positive (no pun intended) in their bid to attract gym rats and weekend warriors.

    Pounding the supplement industry is a separate issue to Tyson Gay getting nailed by accidental dosing. Or other wise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

      Originally posted by mal
      Blues.

      The point is that elite athletes are paying the price, but that supplement companies have zero skin in this game.

      Their target audience is not Tyson Gay. He is just collateral damage here. In fact he's a positive (no pun intended) in their bid to attract gym rats and weekend warriors.

      Pounding the supplement industry is a separate issue to Tyson Gay getting nailed by accidental dosing. Or other wise.
      Thanks. I'm aware of what the point is though. I just can't agree yet with the philosophy that because a few unwitting or careless elite athletes test positive for a banned substance, that we should automatically "unban" the substance. If there's proof that elite athletes who tested positive had absolutely no way of knowing or suspecting that they might have been taking or using a banned substance and had no way to avoid it, then I have more compassion for them, but I still probably won't agree that certain substances should be removed from the prohibited list completely.

      The majority of elite athletes can avoid testing positive for banned stimulants, dhea, diuretics, etc, so I'm not sure those who do test positive automatically deserve heaps of sympathy just because the substance wasn't a substance like anabolic steroids, EPO, SARMs, HGH, etc... And if it turns out that an athlete couldn't have known that he or she was using a banned substance, was at no fault or reduced fault, and had no intent to cheat, sanctions can still be significantly reduced or eliminated in the name of fairness if the ruling bodies so choose.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

        Why are athletes taking supplements? If they want nutrition, then eat well. If they want to aid their recovery & get the best out of themselves, take ice baths, have a massage, see a physio/chiropractor, get enough sleep and have good nutrition etc. etc.

        Athletes take supplements because they believe the substances ‘help’ them. But if substances do aid performance, shouldn’t they be banned substances? And if they don’t aid performance, then why take them? If they want to take something legal, like whey protein, then they should know by now that you cannot trust what goes in that supplement and they may be contaminated. Athletes know that they are responsible for what goes in their body. They know which athletes have been banned and that some of those have claimed it’s from tainted supplements. They (should) know that the supplements produced in different countries are all subject to different laws and regulations.

        So the bottom line is, if you take supplements, you have to accept that in taking those supplements you might actually get a positive test, because you cannot trust that substance 100%.
        If you really think your body needs protein or amino acids or anything else like that, then do it naturally, that’s the only healthy safe option.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

          Originally posted by Blues
          [….

          I think it would be better to place far stricter regulations on the supplement industry rather than to make current drug testing more lenient. .....
          Perhaps, but this is totally illogical. You're asking federal government(s) to step in and stop free trade because some private organization doesn't like what they're doing. Obviously that wouldn't happen in a bazillion years.

          I hasten to add that I personally think the whole supplement industry should be shut down. Thank you Orrin Hatch.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

            Originally posted by gh
            [whole supplement industry should be shut down.
            While 98% of it is snake-oil, I can't help but think that many lives have also been saved by simple dietary supplements that contain an essential vitamin or mineral that an individual's body was sorely lacking, even without a doctor's consultation.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

              Originally posted by Marlow
              Originally posted by gh
              [whole supplement industry should be shut down.
              While 98% of it is snake-oil, I can't help but think that many lives have also been saved by simple dietary supplements that contain an essential vitamin or mineral that an individual's body was sorely lacking, even without a doctor's consultation.
              But those vitamins and minerals, that might currently state that they contain 500mg of an active ingredient but really only contain 5mg and maybe a few pesticides too (at least until someone finds out), could still be marketed in the future as drugs rather than supplements. Keep in mind that drugs don't have to be prescription drugs. When you buy a bottle of generic aspirin, acetaminophen, etc. etc. off the shelf, it requires strict regulations like a drug, not the anything-goes wimpy regulations like a supplement. Vitamins and minerals, and certain other nutritional supplements, could be regulated in the same way that over the counter drugs are, and would provide a much better guarantee to the consumer of what's actually contained in the product.

              http://www.newsweek.com/so-many-supplem ... ation-3267

              http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/a ... =2#content

              http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/111 ... ry-072813/

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

                Originally posted by Gabriella
                If they want to aid their recovery & get the best out of themselves, take ice baths, have a massage, see a physio/chiropractor, get enough sleep and have good nutrition etc. etc. Athletes take supplements because they believe the substances ‘help’ them. But if substances do aid performance, shouldn’t they be banned substances?
                Now, Gabriella, you said if athletes want to aid their recovery and get the best out of themselves they should take ice baths, have a massage, see a physio/chiro, get sleep, eat well. You then said if substances aid performance they should be banned substances.

                So by that logic, shouldn't taking ice baths, having a massage, seeing a physio/chiro, getting enough sleep, eating well - be banned? All of that aids performance, you said, and they you said if something aids performance, it should be banned.

                So why do we ban supplements and not getting a massage, etc.?

                By the way, I agree with you about the supplement industry - it should be much better regulated.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

                  Originally posted by Marlow
                  Originally posted by gh
                  [whole supplement industry should be shut down.
                  While 98% of it is snake-oil, I can't help but think that many lives have also been saved by simple dietary supplements that contain an essential vitamin or mineral that an individual's body was sorely lacking, even without a doctor's consultation.
                  Its not what's supposed to be in the supplement that's a problem here. Its what they don't take out, or put in without notice.

                  Its clearly an industry that needs and lacks regulation. Without regard to whether athletes are involved or not. Its a food. like that poisonous powder that some Chinese manufacturers were adding to their breast milk supplements as filler a few years ago.

                  If you can't guarantee what's in there, you should not be making and selling it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Any recent news about Tyson Gay?...

                    Originally posted by mal
                    Its not what's supposed to be in the supplement that's a problem here. Its what they don't take out, or put in without notice.
                    Yes, good point.

                    Speaking of which, I was taking an Omega 3-6-9 supplement until I read that Omega-6 is a cause of arterial inflammation which facilitates fatty deposits to adhere to the blood vessel walls. I have no idea what, if ANY claims are true and I MUST stop buying snake-oil!!! ops:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: the value of supplements [split]

                      Originally posted by Blues
                      I think it would be better to place far stricter regulations on the supplement industry rather than to make current drug testing more lenient.
                      These two are not mutually exclusive. Yes, I agree that the vitamin/supplement industry should be regulated.

                      Originally posted by Marlow
                      While 98% of it is snake-oil, I can't help but think that many lives have also been saved by simple dietary supplements that contain an essential vitamin or mineral that an individual's body was sorely lacking, even without a doctor's consultation.
                      With an exception of a few cases of pernicious anemia, a few gutter alcoholics and cancer patients on immunosuppression, the last case of vitamin/mineral deficiency I saw was a case of rickets in two severely malnourished Gypsy children (brothers) from a godforsaken Gypsy hamlet in far eastern Slovakia about a half century ago.

                      If you want to apply your statement to similarly undernourished children in Somalia, Haiti..., I would agree, but to apply it to a US general population, no way.
                      "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                      by Thomas Henry Huxley

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: the value of supplements [split]

                        Originally posted by Pego
                        With an exception of a few cases of pernicious anemia, a few gutter alcoholics and cancer patients on immunosuppression, the last case of vitamin/mineral deficiency I saw was a case of rickets
                        Serious question: If one were to admit to having one of the worst diets known to modern man, devoid of fruits, vegetables, sea-food, etc. . . . replete with nothing but processed (aka fake) foods, red meat and fried foods, wouldn't you say that person is deficient in some important vitamins and minerals? And, that being the case, wouldn't you recommend supplementation with 'pills' rich in the things that are lacking in the diet? Or, as is often squawked, are those supplements not actually doing anything for such a person? The problem is that we read: "Just eat a normal varied diet with all the essential food groups and you won't need a supplement." That, most emphatically, does NOT apply to some people! Some people, who should know better, are cursed with a palate that HATES anything good for that person! :wink:

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: the value of supplements [split]

                          Originally posted by Marlow
                          If one were to admit to having one of the worst diets known to modern man, devoid of fruits, vegetables, sea-food, etc. . . . replete with nothing but processed (aka fake) foods, red meat and fried foods, wouldn't you say that person is deficient in some important vitamins and minerals?
                          Maybe not, as many processed foods are fortified. In fact, isn't that one of their selling points? Just check out the Kellogg's Frosted Flakes next time you're in the cereal aisle.

                          Fortified with 10 essential vitamins and minerals, have no cholesterol and are fat-free!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: the value of supplements [split]

                            Originally posted by Pego
                            With an exception of a few cases of pernicious anemia, a few gutter alcoholics and cancer patients on immunosuppression, the last case of vitamin/mineral deficiency I saw was a case of rickets in two severely malnourished Gypsy children (brothers) from a godforsaken Gypsy hamlet in far eastern Slovakia about a half century ago.

                            If you want to apply your statement to similarly undernourished children in Somalia, Haiti..., I would agree, but to apply it to a US general population, no way.
                            A large percentage of the US population is deficient in Vitamin D.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: the value of supplements [split]

                              Originally posted by Marlow
                              Originally posted by Pego
                              With an exception of a few cases of pernicious anemia, a few gutter alcoholics and cancer patients on immunosuppression, the last case of vitamin/mineral deficiency I saw was a case of rickets
                              Serious question: If one were to admit to having one of the worst diets known to modern man, devoid of fruits, vegetables, sea-food, etc. . . . replete with nothing but processed (aka fake) foods, red meat and fried foods, wouldn't you say that person is deficient in some important vitamins and minerals? And, that being the case, wouldn't you recommend supplementation with 'pills' rich in the things that are lacking in the diet? Or, as is often squawked, are those supplements not actually doing anything for such a person? The problem is that we read: "Just eat a normal varied diet with all the essential food groups and you won't need a supplement." That, most emphatically, does NOT apply to some people! Some people, who should know better, are cursed with a palate that HATES anything good for that person! :wink:
                              You would not believe how little of vitamins you need to avoid vitamin deficiency syndromes (scurvy, beri-beri, pellagra, night blindness...). A small amount of lime/lemon/carrot juice prevented scurvy in sea voyages once people discovered that it helped. Then there is the fortification as Daisy pointed out.

                              Originally posted by 18.99s
                              A large percentage of the US population is deficient in Vitamin D.
                              Yes, by lab criteria. Yet, you don't see rickets in USA. Clinical evidence for some alleged problems (osteopenia, memory loss...) as a result of vitamin D deficiency is far from being established. That said, vitamin D supplementation might be a good idea for some post-menopausal women and occasionally a few others. Or, spend some time on sun instead of the front of the monitor every now and then :wink: .
                              "A beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact."
                              by Thomas Henry Huxley

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