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Transgender Athletes Dominating High School and College Sports

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  • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post

    Bisexual: you are sexually attracted by both men and women.
    Pan-sexual: you are sexually attracted by people of all genders (including non-binary).
    I think "omni-sexual" means the same as pan-sexual.

    The difference between gender-fluid and non-binary? It "should" literally means that "gender-fluid" is that your gender identity is not fixed, while non-binary is you don't identify either as male or female (you are in-between). That's not how they are actually used. What Nikki Hiltz describes sounds more like "gender-fluid" than "non-binary."

    Some people think "queer" is the all-encompassing word that includes everyone in LGBTAIQ+ community.
    I think omni-sexual means you only have sex while staying at an Omni Hotel

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    • deadly serious subject being treated to a bit too much levity for my liking

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      • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
        It used to be very common that kids play sports with and against older kids. As long as they knew the other kids were older, it did not demoralize them. It made at least some of them work harder to catch up with the older kids. We even used to play with uneven numbers. If 17 kids showed up for a soccer game on the playground, we played nine on eight, instead of forcing one of us to sit down. We have lost that kind of casualness in kids sports, and now everything has to be taken oh so seriously.
        When it's unstructured play like that, the kids will sort out things in a way that works for them, so there is no sense of unfairness being imposed on them by the authorities.

        But when it's an organized league with a limit of X players per team on the field with maximum age Y, then another team is allowed to play X+1 players or a player of age Y+2, that's seen as rigging the game and everybody who's not affiliated with the overly advantaged team would be shouting HELL NO.

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        • It is a serious subject but doesn't need to be. I went on wiki to try to understand the mishmash of sexes/genders/feelings/emotions/whims/whatever. There are countless definitions of mental conditions that have nothing to do with fairness in physical competition. A person born with ovaries and a uterus is a female. A person born with testes (internal or external) is a male. Post puberty biological males are undeniably physically advantaged compared to biological females. How can anyone argue against that?
          We can feel empathy for the infinitesimally small number of people who have difficulty accepting that but we have no obligation to soothe their psyche to the detriment of true females. The rare cases where a person has both female and male genitalia, organs, and plumbing are immaterial for this discussion.

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          • We needn't concern ourselves with the terminology pertaining to who one is attracted to romantically, but focus in the topic. The general consensus is that the members posting in here are particularly concerned with the unfairness of the majority of female athletes having to race with a transgender female. There is no solution which will satisfy everyone. The closest thing I see is a limit on T-levels for women's events, and some minimum waiting period for transitioning athletes before they are eligible to compete.

            It will not make everyone happy, but I do not see any solution that will.

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            • Originally posted by KevinR View Post
              We needn't concern ourselves with the terminology pertaining to who one is attracted to romantically, but focus in the topic. The general consensus is that the members posting in here are particularly concerned with the unfairness of the majority of female athletes having to race with a transgender female. There is no solution which will satisfy everyone. The closest thing I see is a limit on T-levels for women's events, and some minimum waiting period for transitioning athletes before they are eligible to compete.

              It will not make everyone happy, but I do not see any solution that will.
              This won't remove the taint/asterisk from the names of all transgender champions.

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              • Originally posted by KevinR View Post
                We needn't concern ourselves with the terminology pertaining to who one is attracted to romantically, but focus in the topic. The general consensus is that the members posting in here are particularly concerned with the unfairness of the majority of female athletes having to race with a transgender female. There is no solution which will satisfy everyone. The closest thing I see is a limit on T-levels for women's events, and some minimum waiting period for transitioning athletes before they are eligible to compete.

                It will not make everyone happy, but I do not see any solution that will.
                I am pretty sure that the solution that will satisy 100% of biological female athletes is that only biologica
                I l females can compete as females in sports.

                I have talked with many transgender over the years, and they almost all agree that transgender females should be accepted as females except in sport.


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                • Originally posted by Tuariki View Post
                  I am pretty sure that the solution that will satisfy 100% of biological female athletes is that only biological females can compete as females in sports.
                  See, there is a simple solution. Tuariki and I get it. What is so hard to understand about that?
                  Last edited by lonewolf; 04-02-2021, 03:25 AM.

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                  • I am good with that solution, as well. Move my earlier suggestion to the Plan B column.

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                    • Originally posted by KevinR View Post
                      The closest thing I see is a limit on T-levels for women's events, and some minimum waiting period for transitioning athletes before they are eligible to compete.
                      Even that doesn't seem acceptable to me. If you transition M2F after puberty, you still have a male build, which gives you an advantage even without male T-level.
                      Było smaszno, a jaszmije smukwijne...

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                      • I would not be against a study to determine what that impact would be. The most certain way to keep the fields levelled would be to impose a ban on trans females competing in female competitions. To quote the great philosopher Spockrates, "The good of the many outweighs the food of the few."

                        We live in an imperfect world with imperfect solutions. I would gladly welcome the input of anyone from the trans community into the conversation.

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                        • Originally posted by Powell View Post
                          Even that doesn't seem acceptable to me. If you transition M2F after puberty, you still have a male build, which gives you an advantage even without male T-level.
                          As explained above, NOTHING will eliminate born-male advantages, but having to compete as a male, when you are now a female, is problematic also. I really think that limiting t-level is the only viable solution.

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                          • Originally posted by Tuariki View Post
                            I am pretty sure that the solution that will satisy 100% of biological female athletes is that only biologicaI females can compete as females in sports.
                            I don't think this satisfies 100% of cis female athletes.

                            Billie Jean King, Megan Rapinoe, and Candace Parker Join Nearly 200 Athletes Supporting Trans Youth Participation in Sports

                            Today, sports icon Billie Jean King, U.S. National Women’s Soccer Team Co-Captain and World Cup Champion Megan Rapinoe, and WNBA trail-blazer and legend Candace Parker joined nearly 200 fellow athletes in women’s sports to support providing girls and women who are transgender the equal opportunity to participate in sports.

                            https://www.womenssportsfoundation.o...ion-in-sports/

                            As a cis male, I think it is none of my business to tell those women what they should support. It's their issue, not mine.


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                            • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                              As explained above, NOTHING will eliminate born-male advantages, but having to compete as a male, when you are now a female, is problematic also. I really think that limiting t-level is the only viable solution.
                              This could be a viable solution for sports like running and swimming. But apparently not for weightlifting. 10% advantage can be reduced to 1% with hormone treatment. There is no way 50% advantage can be reduced to a reasonable level. And if you do not care about weightlifting, I suspect shot put and javelin throw would be at the higher end as well.

                              Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage

                              We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10-50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body.

                              https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

                              Here is the figure that compared different sports.

                              https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3328...id=fig-1-uid-0

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                              • Every athlete who transitioned to competing against women ranked significantly higher against women than they ever ranked against men before the transition. Lowering testosterone can reduce, but will never eliminate the advantage; otherwise we'd expect to see them acquire a similar ranking against women.

                                But instead they go from far outside the elite ranks among men to elite among women. Or formerly elite among men in their youth, to elite among women in their aging years (e.g. Laurel Hubbard, Renee Richards). Or they rise far within the ranks of the non-elites, like that goalkeeper mentioned earlier in this thread who went from being not good enough for a high school boys' soccer team to becoming the starting goalkeeper for a women's team in college.

                                Without exception, they still carried over the residual advantages of growing up with a male body and manifested those advantages into competitive results. It just happens that their starting point before the transition was far enough from the top that they did not become ultra-dominant monsters after the transition. But if a top 10 man in swimming, track & field, or weightlifting transitioned while still young and healthy, they'd obliterate the women's world record in their chosen event, putting it beyond the reach of biological women for decades or forever.

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