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Transgender Athletes Dominating High School and College Sports

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  • Quite the sticky wicket!

    As adamant as I am that bio-males, without modification, should never compete against females, I also know there are some very sincere MtF transgenders who still want to compete with their 'same' gender, so I will apply my usual standard - would I want my daughter or granddaughters to have to compete against trans? The answer is yes, as long as the trans had made a physical commitment to become females, which means no natural male T, and taking T-lowering drugs (sorry, guy-gals) to bring them within the normative female range.

    If the MtFs win with this, I'll chalk that up to one small win for the trans community, which already has enough things going against it in social norms.

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    • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
      I don't think this satisfies 100% of cis female athletes. Billie Jean King, Megan Rapinoe, and Candace Parker Join Nearly 200 Athletes Supporting Trans Youth Participation in Sports
      I suspect King, Rapinoe, and Parker, etal. are being influenced by empathy rather than common sense/science. Aside from the King/Riggs stunt, I don't see them clamoring to compete against men.

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      • unless somebody has a new stick with which to beat this dead horse, methinks it's about time for this thread to fade away

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        • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post

          I don't think this satisfies 100% of cis female athletes.

          Billie Jean King, Megan Rapinoe, and Candace Parker Join Nearly 200 Athletes Supporting Trans Youth Participation in Sports

          Today, sports icon Billie Jean King, U.S. National Women’s Soccer Team Co-Captain and World Cup Champion Megan Rapinoe, and WNBA trail-blazer and legend Candace Parker joined nearly 200 fellow athletes in women’s sports to support providing girls and women who are transgender the equal opportunity to participate in sports.

          https://www.womenssportsfoundation.o...ion-in-sports/

          As a cis male, I think it is none of my business to tell those women what they should support. It's their issue, not mine.

          I don't see why Billie Jean King's opinion on this topic is any more relevant than Martina Navratilova's, nor does it trump logic and common sense.

          Navratilova seeks provision for elite sports after Biden transgender sport move

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          • Originally posted by gh View Post
            unless somebody has a new stick with which to beat this dead horse, methinks it's about time for this thread to fade away
            I won't argue with that...

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            • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
              As explained above, NOTHING will eliminate born-male advantages, but having to compete as a male, when you are now a female, is problematic also. I really think that limiting t-level is the only viable solution.
              Aha!!!!! that is the whole point. No matter how much they wish it, neither surgery nor chemicals can change a male into a female and vice-versa.
              And gh is right. I think it has all been said.

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              • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post

                I don't see why Billie Jean King's opinion on this topic is any more relevant than Martina Navratilova's, nor does it trump logic and common sense.

                Navratilova seeks provision for elite sports after Biden transgender sport move
                I don't either. But I don't think Navratilova's opinion is any more relevant than BJK's. I was merely refuting the false premise that 100% of cis female athletes are on the same side. They aren't. When those two are on the opposing sides, it's obvious that the issue is not simple, and the solution is not easy.

                You might think we already have the right answer to this question. I don't.

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                • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
                  You might think we already have the right answer to this question. I don't.
                  I agree with you on this point. "Right" in this context is a subjective word, in the eyes of the beholder.

                  We basically have 3 opinions on this issue.
                  • 1. Those who believe that transgender athletes should never be allowed to compete against natural-born females because even with hormone therapy, they have an unfair advantage and competitive fairness trumps all.
                    2. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because though they may have an advantage, their human rights trumps competitive fairness.
                    3. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because they have no competitive advantage over natural-born females.

                  I'm in group one but at least the folks in group two are dealing with the same facts that I am. Debating the folks in group three is a waste of time since they aren't even dealing with the same facts that I am.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
                    We basically have 3 opinions on this issue.
                    • 1. Those who believe that transgender athletes should never be allowed to compete against natural-born females because even with hormone therapy, they have an unfair advantage and competitive fairness trumps all.
                      2. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because though they may have an advantage, their human rights trumps competitive fairness.
                      3. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because they have no competitive advantage over natural-born females.
                    There's the 4th position that I believe most people here have espoused.
                    4. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females after they have undergone medical therapy to reduce their t-levels to the normative range of born-females.

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                    • Put me in group 1.

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                      • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                        There's the 4th position that I believe most people here have espoused.
                        4. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females after they have undergone medical therapy to reduce their t-levels to the normative range of born-females.
                        You're describing group two. My presumption is that both groups two and three think transgenders should have to undergo hormone therapy, which includes folks like TN1965. What distinguishes groups two and three is that the former concedes that hormone therapy may not eliminate all that advantages of being born a male.

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                        • Society needs to do a better job of promoting boys' sports as open to all genders and sexes -- male, female, intersex, and trans -- so any girls (whether trans or cis) who can or want to take on the challenge of competing on a boys' team aren't met with resistance or made to feel like they don't fit in.

                          The two trans girls in Connecticut were on the boys' team in the season prior to transitioning, and they hadn't yet taken any hormone therapy when on the girls' team, so it wasn't as if being on the girls' team was a necessary condition for their participation in the sport. Participation wasn't the issue; they just wanted to participate in a way that made them feel better, whether the motivation was winning more easily or fitting in socially. They should have just continued to compete with the boys, without facing resistance within the school system for doing so, while living as girls socially and training with whomever or whatever they want.

                          An important first step should be a determination of whether competing as a girl/woman is actually necessary for participation, given the individuals and the circumstances. If you're a biological male with a men's team available to you in your chosen sport (which was the case with those two in Connecticut, and also Telfer and Eastwood), go and compete on that team instead of with the women. One can make human rights arguments about promoting participation, but there is no such right to participate in a less rigorous division where you can win more easily.
                          Last edited by 18.99s; 04-03-2021, 04:07 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
                            I agree with you on this point. "Right" in this context is a subjective word, in the eyes of the beholder.

                            We basically have 3 opinions on this issue.
                            • 1. Those who believe that transgender athletes should never be allowed to compete against natural-born females because even with hormone therapy, they have an unfair advantage and competitive fairness trumps all.
                              2. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because though they may have an advantage, their human rights trumps competitive fairness.
                              3. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because they have no competitive advantage over natural-born females.

                            I'm in group one but at least the folks in group two are dealing with the same facts that I am. Debating the folks in group three is a waste of time since they aren't even dealing with the same facts that I am.
                            Or #4. It's an issue that should be decided by the cis female athletes. As a cis male, it's none of my business to mansplain to them what they should want. And apparently, their opinions are divided.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post

                              Or #4. It's an issue that should be decided by the cis female athletes. As a cis male, it's none of my business to mansplain to them what they should want. And apparently, their opinions are divided.
                              Wait a minute! Are you now saying that you're neutral on this issue because it sure doesn't sound like that based on what you've been posting here so far?
                              Last edited by jazzcyclist; 04-04-2021, 12:16 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
                                Wait a minute! Are you now saying that you're neutral on this issue because it sure doesn't sound like that based on what you've been posting here so far?
                                I don't sound "neutral" to you, because I am not in complete agreement with "the only fair and balanced" view on this issue.

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