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Transgender Athletes Dominating High School and College Sports

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  • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post

    I don't sound "neutral" to you, because I am not in complete agreement with "the only fair and balanced" view on this issue.
    I admit that I'm not neutral and have a strong opinion, but that doesn't prevent me from recognizing folks with differing opinions whose positions are as strongly held as mine. The idea that a neutral person would have as many posts on this thread as you or I is ludicrous.

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    • The idea that only people with extreme positions could have strong opinion in any issue is ridiculous. That's what is causing the polarization today.

      The more I learned about this issue, the more I have come to be convinced that there are only bad and worse solutions. And I have also become convinced that it's not up to me to decide which solution is the least worst. That's my current opinion. And I hold that opinion as strongly as anyone with extreme positions.

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      • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
        The more I learned about this issue, the more I have come to be convinced that there are only bad and worse solutions.
        There is a 'good' solution, but even excellent solutions have their detractors. Ya can't please all the people all the time, so you have to aim at the greatest good.
        The biggest problem, as you note, is that this issue seems particularly polarized, so the solution is guaranteed to please neither pole. There WILL be MtF trans competing with some degree of male advantage, which we just have to mitigate as much as possible, hence the t-limits proposal, which I (!) find the only viable solution.

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        • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
          There is a 'good' solution, but even excellent solutions have their detractors. Ya can't please all the people all the time, so you have to aim at the greatest good.
          This is actually quite easy: if you are biologically a woman you compete in the women's section, if for whatever reason you are not biologically a woman you get to lace it up with the guys. Totally fair for the women and easily defensible.

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          • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
            There is a 'good' solution, but even excellent solutions have their detractors. Ya can't please all the people all the time, so you have to aim at the greatest good.
            The biggest problem, as you note, is that this issue seems particularly polarized, so the solution is guaranteed to please neither pole. There WILL be MtF trans competing with some degree of male advantage, which we just have to mitigate as much as possible, hence the t-limits proposal, which I (!) find the only viable solution.
            I think the minimum age for hormone replacement therapy is 16. (At least in the US.) So do you allow 15 yr old to compete without lowering the t-level? Or do you ban them until they can lower their t-level?

            Is it ethical to require that 16 and 17 yr old take hormone replacement therapy? It is one thing if they want to, but requiring it seems to be another thing.

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            • Originally posted by bad hammy View Post
              This is actually quite easy: if you are biologically a woman you compete in the women's section, if for whatever reason you are not biologically a woman you get to lace it up with the guys. Totally fair for the women and easily defensible.
              AMEN!!!!!!! Why complicate it with sympathy, empathy, chemistry, and surgery???????

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              • Originally posted by bad hammy View Post
                This is actually quite easy: if you are biologically a woman you compete in the women's section, if for whatever reason you are not biologically a woman you get to lace it up with the guys. Totally fair for the women and easily defensible.
                Not that I completely disagree with this thought process, I think we need to look at the other side and consider the fact that the transgender girl may have spent multiple years identifying as a girl. This includes social circles, dress, appearance, etc. Now they are going to be asked to return to a male world....no matter how short that stay would be.

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                • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post

                  I think the minimum age for hormone replacement therapy is 16. (At least in the US.) So do you allow 15 yr old to compete without lowering the t-level? Or do you ban them until they can lower their t-level?

                  Is it ethical to require that 16 and 17 yr old take hormone replacement therapy? It is one thing if they want to, but requiring it seems to be another thing.
                  So the 15 year old transgender girl who is 6 foot 1 or 6ft 2 shows up to the tryouts for the basketball team. With any basketball ability at all she is the best player on the team on the overwhelming majority of girls HS teams in the country. Now I get that this may not have occurred to this point and my never occur but I think any decisions made must take this situation into account of potentially occurring. Since she's already gone through puberty and grown to that height, does she already have a decided advantage over the rest of the girls even if she were to lower her t-level? Should it matter?

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                  • Originally posted by NotDutra5 View Post

                    So the 15 year old transgender girl who is 6 foot 1 or 6ft 2 shows up to the tryouts for the basketball team. With any basketball ability at all she is the best player on the team on the overwhelming majority of girls HS teams in the country. Now I get that this may not have occurred to this point and my never occur but I think any decisions made must take this situation into account of potentially occurring. Since she's already gone through puberty and grown to that height, does she already have a decided advantage over the rest of the girls even if she were to lower her t-level? Should it matter?
                    I think it should matter. but I will let Atticus answer the question, since he is the one who believes HRT is the magic bullet. I don't.

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                    • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
                      I think it should matter. but I will let Atticus answer the question, since he is the one who believes HRT is the magic bullet. I don't.
                      The short answer is simple - if you can't lower your T, for whatever reason, you are only eligible to play as a male. Many girls have played on many boys teams in the past, so if s/he is good enough to make the team, more power to him/her. I think it would be a good educational experience for everyone for a MtF trans to play with other males until such time as s/he can get the therapy.

                      If the desire is to 'participate', then there's the opportunity.

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                      • Originally posted by TN1965 View Post
                        The idea that only people with extreme positions could have strong opinion in any issue is ridiculous. That's what is causing the polarization today.
                        I never used the word "extreme". Extreme is a subjective word that's in the eyes of the beholder. What I'm saying is that if you have a strong opinion, and you clearly do since you reject the first category that I listed, by definition you are not neutral. A truly neutral person would be open to all three categories, which you clearly aren't.

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                        • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
                          I agree with you on this point. "Right" in this context is a subjective word, in the eyes of the beholder.

                          We basically have 3 opinions on this issue.
                          • 1. Those who believe that transgender athletes should never be allowed to compete against natural-born females because even with hormone therapy, they have an unfair advantage and competitive fairness trumps all.
                            2. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because though they may have an advantage, their human rights trumps competitive fairness.
                            3. Those who believe that transgender athletes should be allowed to compete against natural-born females because they have no competitive advantage over natural-born females.

                          I'm in group one but at least the folks in group two are dealing with the same facts that I am. Debating the folks in group three is a waste of time since they aren't even dealing with the same facts that I am.
                          Another way of reprhrasing #2 is:

                          And stuff the human rights of more than 3 billion biological (real) women

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                          • Originally posted by jazzcyclist View Post
                            I never used the word "extreme". Extreme is a subjective word that's in the eyes of the beholder. What I'm saying is that if you have a strong opinion, and you clearly do since you reject the first category that I listed, by definition you are not neutral. A truly neutral person would be open to all three categories, which you clearly aren't.
                            I have never categorically rejected your #1 as an option. That's your false assumption. If that's what the overwhelming majority of cis female athletes want, that should be the answer.

                            We have not seen any evidence one way or another, in spite of very confident declaration by certain posters.

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                            • Originally posted by gh View Post
                              unless somebody has a new stick with which to beat this dead horse, methinks it's about time for this thread to fade away
                              I think this time has come.
                              We all have our views, but until such time as the courts finish with it, it's just intellectual onanism.

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                              • Originally posted by Atticus View Post
                                The short answer is simple - if you can't lower your T, for whatever reason, you are only eligible to play as a male. Many girls have played on many boys teams in the past, so if s/he is good enough to make the team, more power to him/her.
                                And if not good enough to make the boys'team with a male body and unmodified T, they're in the same position as all the various boys who weren't good enough to make the boys' team. Those boys don't get to join the girls' team for the sake of participation; they just have to suck it up buttercup and try again next season if they still have eligibility, or try another sport, or a less competitive league (e.g. junior varsity or an external rec league), or accept the life of being a nonathlete just like billions do.
                                Last edited by 18.99s; 04-05-2021, 09:47 PM.

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